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September 21

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Category:Loss of Canadian citizenship by prior Nazi affiliation

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Nominator's rationale: This category is extremely awkwardly named. I've made a tentative attempt, but I'd be really open to alternatives. Mason (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Loss of Canadian citizenship and deportation by prior Nazi affiliation

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Nominator's rationale: Overlapping categories. We really don't need this level of intersection between nazi+canadian+legal status Mason (talk) 22:20, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Malayalam film

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Nominator's rationale: Malayalam-language films https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Malayalam-language_films is the existing category Isoceles-sai (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Ice planets

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Nominator's rationale: Rename to "Ice exoplanets"

The current contents of the category are all exoplanets, and it is likely that all future candidates for this category will also be exoplanets. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_planet - " there are many icy objects in the Solar System, none of them qualify as planets under the IAU definition of planet. " Isoceles-sai (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People of Middle Eastern descent

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Nominator's rationale: Follow-up of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 August 27#Category:Middle Eastern diaspora. I have already manually merged and redirected many Middle Eastern descent categories into West Asian descent categories. Only now have I realized that their history may also need to be merged. Below is the list --Sakakami (talk) 09:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all – the term “Middle Eastern” even if not necessarily geographically correct; is a lot more widely used than “West Asian”, therefore, I oppose the renames. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 03:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But that is the whole problem with "Middle Eastern", it is vague, inaccurate, not geographically correct, eurocentric etc. and therefore often results in WP:ARBITRARYCATs and generalisations. Our categorisation should be unambiguous and "West Asia" is much clearer, even if it is not yet used as frequently as "Middle East". NLeeuw (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Manually merged
  • Comment – I understand the rationale, but I find this proposal and the previous ones that went through with very little discussion quite odd. "Middle Eastern" is a far more common term than "West Asian". Is there a reason we need to go that way instead of the reverse? If there are countries in West Asia that don't fit into the Middle East, is it necessary to group every country into a region for ancestry? Mclay1 (talk) 12:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mclay1 – We have categories for Category:People of Central Asian descent, Category:People of East Asian descent, Category:People of South Asian descent and Category:People of Southeast Asian descent. While both Middle East and West Asia are somewhat imprecise, West Asia aligns better with the existing geographic categorization. Middle East is a political term that has changed frequently depending on political and historical contexts, whereas 'West Asia' is a more consistent geographical term. It excludes most of Egypt and the northwestern part of Turkey, while including the southern part of the Caucasus. Additionally, 'West Asia' is arguably a more neutral term; for example, see the WANA Institute in Jordan. Sakakami (talk) 13:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those other Asian regions are common terms, whereas "West Asia" is basically a term created to fill the gap and replace the Middle East for the reasons you mentioned. While that might make sense for geography, I'm not sure it makes sense for ancestry. I doubt many people would consider themselves to be "West Asian" as opposed to Middle Eastern. It feels like we're inventing our own classification system just for the sake of having neat subcategories rather than reflecting outside usage. Mclay1 (talk) 13:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hear, hear. And "Middle East", as a term, doesn't necessarily imply the subject is located in Asia, whereas "West Asia" mandates it. As such, "West Asia" would exclude Egypt (Africa) and parts of Turkey (Europe), whereas "Middle East" wouldn't. While there are some places in "West Asia" that aren't in the Middle East, I think the latter category is more elastic by definition, whereas West Asia will always be only in Asia. But I could live with "ME & WA" as a category, or even "NA, ME & WA", but at that point, does it become the "Greater Middle East"? Lewisguile (talk) 07:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Discussion on merge direction would be appreciated :)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 21:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete the entire category tree Most people wouldn't consider themselves "West Asian" or "middle Eastern" but Arab, Assyrian, Lebanese, etc. Also delete the other Asia region descent categories for the same reason. (t · c) buidhe 23:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would support Delete the entire category tree as well per WP:NONDEF. --Sakakami (talk) 12:08, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reverse merge, including the untagged categories in the list above that were manually moved or merged out-of-process. Middle Eastern is the commonly-used term for the ethnicity, as evidenced by the recently-adopted U.S. federal government standards, which added "Middle Eastern or North African" as a race and ethnicity category. - Eureka Lott 16:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not a single ethnicity, but rather a category encompassing people descended from West Asian (also known as Middle Eastern) countries. --Sakakami (talk) 12:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose merge. I appreciate the good intentions behind the proposal, but the Middle East is a different category than West Asia. It may include nationalities that are otherwise European or African, depending on whether one uses a broad or narrow definition of each. If someone identifies as having Middle Eastern heritage, but their origins are in North Africa or Europe, would we exclude them from the category? It doesn't make sense to me. It seems like an attempt for symmetry regardless of how these categories work in reality.
    That said, I could probably support a combined "Middle East and West Asia" category, but that may be a mouthful. At least no one is left out that way, though. Lewisguile (talk) 12:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Lewisguile: if someone identifies as having Middle Eastern heritage, but their origins are in North Africa or Europe, -> can you give some example articles where this applies? Because I don't have a clue yet how it would work. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Well I was thinking specifically of Egyptians in a list like "People of West Asian descent"—they aren't in West Asia, but are generally considered to be in the Middle East. And vice versa, someone in the South Caucasus might see themselves as West Asian but not Middle Eastern, so they couldn't go in a singular "People of Middle Eastern descent" article. (The former example seems more obviously wrong, though.)
      So replacing one category with the other means those people don't fit the new list so get left off, or we have to shoehorn them into categories where they don't fit. It's not like Egyptians are particularly rare, at any rate.
      The more I think about it, the more I think "Middle East and West Asia" is better than having one category subsume the other, though having two categories still seems the best to me. Lewisguile (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom and long series of precedents (some of which I helped set). There is a huge amount of overlap between Middle East and West Asia; the latter is simply more accurate, doesn't carry all sorts of stereotypes, negative connotations and generalisations, and by excluding Egypt, we get a clean continental split between Asia and Africa. Lots of international organisations and researchers are already using "West Asia" instead of "Middle East", and sometimes "West Asia and North Africa (WANA)" instead of "Middle East and North Africa (MENA)". NLeeuw (talk) 20:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Consensus currently favors a merge of some type. While that can, of course, change, we need more discussion on whether we should use the West Asian or Middle Eastern names. Those of you on the fence, do you have a slight preference? If there are no further comments in a week, this is heading for a WP:BARTENDER close.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 17:32, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:British premierships

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Nominator's rationale: Similar naming scheme to Presidencies of the United States. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People from Tsabong

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Nominator's rationale: Only includes 1 person. Category formerly also contained a beauty pageant winner, deleted at AfD. Broaden out to the District which currently does not have a "people" category, as this is more likely to be populated in future. – Fayenatic London 14:18, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Botswana constituencies

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Nominator's rationale: Manual merge from recently-created duplicate category. Target is currently a sub-cat so parent categories will need merging manually. – Fayenatic London 13:26, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Constituencies of the National Assembly of Botswana (historic)

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Nominator's rationale: Consistency with parent Category:Former constituencies. The "defunct" category duplicates the content. – Fayenatic London 13:36, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aficionado538 (talk) 14:26, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:De Blob

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Nominator's rationale: Can you seriously call it a "franchise" with only 2 games? I don't think this category is big enough to qualify. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:31, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Subdivisions of Kievan Rus'

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Nominator's rationale: rename, Kievan Rus' was not a centralized country with administrative divisions, but at best a sort of a confederation to which principalities belonged. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems a good idea to harmonise mainspace articles, categories and the template along these lines. NLeeuw (talk) 07:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Perhaps Uglich and Pereslavl-Zalessky could be included in the template above? We haven't got stand-alone articles of them being principalities, so we shouldn't add them to the nominated category, but From 1218 until 1328, Uglich was the seat of a small princedom, and Between 1175 and 1302, Pereslavl was the seat of a principality. There might be other pre-1240 Rus' principalities that we have missed so far that could be included in the category and/or template. NLeeuw (talk) 07:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People from Southend-on-Sea (district)

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Nominator's rationale: As per AFD at County Borough of Southend-on-Sea, the boundaries between City and district are the same. Also there are individual category pages for suburbs of Southend.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:24, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The latter category is for people from the traditional town of Southend-on-Sea, not the wider district, hence the subcats of the district category. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:21, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • So what is the traditional town of Southend? Read any history book and the town is seen as the whole not its parts after they were absorbed into the district. Also Colchester only has one category, People from Colchester, and then separate categories for the other localities in the district, which Southend does with People from Westcliff-on-Sea and People from Leigh on Sea already existing. Therefore a district category is not required.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 11:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • We could use Category:People Southend-on-Sea (district) as a Container category with People from Westcliff-on-Sea etc linked to that? And have a separate People from Southend-on-Sea- much like London has?

Category:Department stores in Southend-On-Sea (town)

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Nominator's rationale: Southend is now a city. As per afd on County Borough of Southend-on-Sea, there is no differentation between the city and district boundaries.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:20, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Southend-on-Sea (district)

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Nominator's rationale: As per discussion at AFD for County Borough of Southend-on-Sea, the boundary for the city and the district are the same. Proposed merger into Southend-on-Sea (town) and rename this category. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Southend-on-Sea (district)

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Nominator's rationale: As per discussion at AFD for County Borough of Southend-on-Sea, the boundaries for the city and district are the same. Eastbourne is good example of this which has one category for the whole town and district.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eastbourne is not the same as it is completely unparished unlike Southend (and as noted below the district article was kept). Southend actually has 3 potential definitions that we could use namely the smallest being the part of the district which has "Southend-on-Sea" as the post town, the next smallest being the unparished area which roughly covers both Southend and Westcliff-on-Sea post towns namely excluding Leigh-on-Sea parish and the largest being the whole district. There is also Southend Urban Area but in 2021 the was urban areas/BUAs seems to have changed so it may not still exist. That said I'm not sure maintaining separate categories for the settlement/unparished area and district is helpful as categories are generally less granular than articles so it may well be better to just merge all into 1 category covering all definitions. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:45, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But the parished area (leigh) falls within the wider Southend UA border. If anything Leigh should have its own category? Davidstewartharvey (talk) 10:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes Leigh probably should have its own category namely for the area covered by the parish. We have other parishes with categories, see Category:Civil parishes in Essex. All the other articles that are in the unparished area could go in the categories for the settlement. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The latter category is for the traditional town of Southend-on-Sea, not the wider district. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In the case of somewhere like Colchester, where the boundaries of the district are outside the city boundaries I can understand having separate categories (Colchester (town) and Boroughof Colchester), but Southend District and city boundaries are the same. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 10:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Southend-on-Sea (town)

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Nominator's rationale: Southend is now a city. Page was split previously as user believed district and town had different borders. This was discussed at AFD for County Borough of Southend-on-Sea which acknowledged they are same so should not be split. Eastbourne is a perfect example. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Churches in Southend-on-Sea (town)

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Nominator's rationale: Southend is now a city. Also AFD discussion at County Borough of Southend-on-Sea agreed that boundaries of the city and the district are the same Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:10, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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