Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation
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Reviewers encountering Carmel-by-the-Sea drafts
editYou should be aware that there is an ANI discussion concerning the creating editor and validity of sourcing. Please double check sources with care. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 23:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- ANI link. Primefac (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- For those who encounter the drafts from Greghenderson2006, please be specially certain that the references pass muster. I have used {{Noping}} in order not to pester them, since the ANI outcome was a community block with no appeal for at least 12 months. They will obviously be unable to respond.
- The ANI outcome prompted my request at the Twinkle talk page, where Primefac drew my attention to a checkbox allowing users not to notify the editor concerned. The AFC script already has such a checkbox. Out of kindness for the blocked editor, a fellow human being, please consider whether notifying them of deletions, reviews, AFC comments, etc does them a service or a disservice, and proceed at your discretion. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 12:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, 12 months means all declined drafts are likely to become deleted drafts. Draft:Lewis Josselyn is really quite extensive and has just been declined - if anyone's in the mood for a draft save, you might want to have a look at that one. Again, as Timtrent said, with a close eye to the sources. -- asilvering (talk) 19:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Asilvering see the talk page where extensive discussion took place about both the sourcing and the content. I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment because 99.99999% of the time there's nothing there other than WikiProject tags but for Greghenderson2006's drafts I suggest reviewers do. S0091 (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, yep. Nevermind, then - this should indeed be left to expire. -- asilvering (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment
. Maybe we can build a notification into AFCH about this. More details in the ticket. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)- That would be really helpful, and it seems to me like your suggestion is a good way to do it. -- asilvering (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree and Joe Roe in the discussion below suggested the same. Thanks Novem. If there is a way to flag anything that is not a template that would be better in case whoever placed the original comment did not start a section but either way, something is better than nothing. S0091 (talk) 18:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That would be really helpful, and it seems to me like your suggestion is a good way to do it. -- asilvering (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Asilvering see the talk page where extensive discussion took place about both the sourcing and the content. I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment because 99.99999% of the time there's nothing there other than WikiProject tags but for Greghenderson2006's drafts I suggest reviewers do. S0091 (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, 12 months means all declined drafts are likely to become deleted drafts. Draft:Lewis Josselyn is really quite extensive and has just been declined - if anyone's in the mood for a draft save, you might want to have a look at that one. Again, as Timtrent said, with a close eye to the sources. -- asilvering (talk) 19:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Draft:Rafael de Miguel González declined 5 times.
editFive different reviewers declined the same article (for different reasons). Is there a limit to how often someone can submit an article? What other actions (besides re-declining again and again) should be taken? Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 06:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- @LR.127 There is no limit, though submission without improvement tends to be tendentious and creates a time sink. Reviewers are human and sufficient "silly submission" can lead to a possibly undeserved rejection. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 07:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- @LR.127 This draft was suggested by @DoubleGrazing to have a possibility of passing WP:NACADEMIC back in December. I think they were correct, though, as presented, I feel it woudl have been the wrong side of the borderline. Since then there has been no improvement to referencing.
- I have left a comment on the draft just now, hoping for a resubmission with just one better reference. It was most recently submitted by an IP.
- I think this one may be acceptable and I'm willing to accept it based on the 50% "rule" and let the community decide. I do not feel like performing a "submit and accept" on it at this stage, though. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 07:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- (I didn't even remember commenting on this...) FWIW, I reckon the EUROGEO presidency satisfies NACADEMIC #6, and the Academia Europaea membership and the fellowship of the Royal Academy of Fine Arts of San Luis both meet #3. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have done as I promised on the draft and accepted it, despite not being provided with the extra reference requested. Over to the community. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 07:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- (I didn't even remember commenting on this...) FWIW, I reckon the EUROGEO presidency satisfies NACADEMIC #6, and the Academia Europaea membership and the fellowship of the Royal Academy of Fine Arts of San Luis both meet #3. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- If it has no chance of ever being accepted due to notability or WP:NOT, rejection is the next step. It is like declining, except it takes away the resubmit button. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is really absurd. The first two declines were for not being written in English. Now that's been fixed, they shouldn't be held against it. After that, multiple reviewers agreed that the subject was notable, but The Herald and LR.127 still declined it for lacking notability. How do you expect the submitter to respond to that feedback – "this is notable, but it doesn't show that it's notable"? It's kafkaesque. Both also complained that the article was "not adequately supported by reliable sources", but it's a one-paragraph bio with six inline citations, what more do you want? Timtrent commented that:
- For a living person we have a high standard of referencing. Every substantive fact you assert, especially one that is susceptible to potential challenge, requires a citation with a reference that is about them, and is independent of them, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS, and is significant coverage.
- ...which is just flat-out wrong. There is no policy that every statement must be referenced, even on BLPs. What WP:BLP actually says is
all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source
. Even if there was, all that are required are reliable, published sources. "Independent", "secondary" and "significant coverage" are requirements of the WP:GNG, not the verifiability or BLP policies. The article uses primary sources from, for example, the University of Zaragoza to support the claim that he is a professor at the University of Zaragoza, and the Real Sociedad Geográfica to support the claim that he is on the board of the Real Sociedad Geográfica. Unless we think these institutions are likely to lie about who works for them, this is absolutely fine. More to the point, when did AfC, which is supposed to accept anything that is not blatant deletion material, give itself the job of fact-checking every single claim in a draft? - This draft should have been accepted as soon as it was translated to English. It is an excellent example of why good faith editors should be steered away from AfC in its current state. – Joe (talk) 08:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Whoa –
"good faith editors should be steered away from AfC in its current state"
! - Well don't hold back, what do you really think about AfC? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- You'll find it's a common view. All the event organisers I know tell new editors to use userspace drafts or create in mainspace instead. Women in Red explicitly says Reply
- I can't speak for others, but I do AfC and NPP and apply the same standards in both, so I don't think it's entirely fair to say categorically that AfC's standards are "so far above" others'. And if AfC goes, it will just shift the workload to the already-congested NPP: notability, verifiability, etc. issues will still be assessed, they'll just be assessed there instead.
- At the end of the day, AfC is mostly a voluntary process, so if sections of the community want to apply lower standards to their WikiProject's (or whatever) article creation, they're welcome to do so. (I don't know why they would want to do that, but they must have their reasons.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- You'll find it's a common view. All the event organisers I know tell new editors to use userspace drafts or create in mainspace instead. Women in Red explicitly says Reply
- And is it now in mainspace? Yes, it is. And did I put it there, yes I did. Thank you for your comments. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 09:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, full credit for that, I was glad to see it. I still find it worrying to see an editor of your experience, who reviews so many AfC submissions, giving blatantly incorrect instructions to a new user. It should not have taken eight months, three declines, and a discussion here to accept an article on a subject that was acknowledged to be notable from the beginning and with zero significant content issues. – Joe (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I declined it on the grounds of lack of inline cites and inability to establish notability. In my experience, BLPs should be more rigorously scanned for notability and AfC should act as a deterrent. Articles passed by AfC shouldn't make it to AfD after a few months just because they weren't fact checked. Tomorrow, if this article ends up in AfD for not sticking to SIGCOV and GNG, then what was the point of AfC? That's why, I try to be a little bit more strict with BLPs as they are more prone to deletion if there's no SIGCOV or GNG. Nonetheless, I see Joe's point about AfC being a headache and a factor to steer away AGF editors who are genuinely interested in the project.
Anyways, glad to see the draft in mainspace and hope it doesn't end up in AfD because AfD is not exactly kind to articles with borderline notability.
Another point I'd like to say is, I straight out reject a draft if there are no improvements after multiple declines. But, there is no deadline and we can always improve the articles/drafts. Happy editing yall. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)- When you declined the draft there were six inline citations – which statements specifically did you identify as lacking citations? There was also a comment from DoubleGrazing saying, Reply
- I am with @Joe Roe:; I have been watching SafariScribe's talk page and they reject articles by the hundreds, often in direct contradiction of the guidelines at WP:AFCR. They demanded that I email them scans of books; is that acceptable behavior? I am not sure how to fix AfC but something has to be done because in its current form it seems only to exist to bite newbies and to keep people out. People like me who have been here for a couple of years don't see what's going on over here but it clearly violates the intended spirit of AfC. I'd love to see this brought up somewhere more official because this is making us look like sadistic, low-level bureaucrats. I can't really argue with this quote: Reply
- Honestly, that's quite a good guide. -- asilvering (talk) 07:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am with @Joe Roe:; I have been watching SafariScribe's talk page and they reject articles by the hundreds, often in direct contradiction of the guidelines at WP:AFCR. They demanded that I email them scans of books; is that acceptable behavior? I am not sure how to fix AfC but something has to be done because in its current form it seems only to exist to bite newbies and to keep people out. People like me who have been here for a couple of years don't see what's going on over here but it clearly violates the intended spirit of AfC. I'd love to see this brought up somewhere more official because this is making us look like sadistic, low-level bureaucrats. I can't really argue with this quote: Reply
- When you declined the draft there were six inline citations – which statements specifically did you identify as lacking citations? There was also a comment from DoubleGrazing saying, Reply
- Well, I declined it on the grounds of lack of inline cites and inability to establish notability. In my experience, BLPs should be more rigorously scanned for notability and AfC should act as a deterrent. Articles passed by AfC shouldn't make it to AfD after a few months just because they weren't fact checked. Tomorrow, if this article ends up in AfD for not sticking to SIGCOV and GNG, then what was the point of AfC? That's why, I try to be a little bit more strict with BLPs as they are more prone to deletion if there's no SIGCOV or GNG. Nonetheless, I see Joe's point about AfC being a headache and a factor to steer away AGF editors who are genuinely interested in the project.
- Yes, full credit for that, I was glad to see it. I still find it worrying to see an editor of your experience, who reviews so many AfC submissions, giving blatantly incorrect instructions to a new user. It should not have taken eight months, three declines, and a discussion here to accept an article on a subject that was acknowledged to be notable from the beginning and with zero significant content issues. – Joe (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Whoa –
- Mr.choppers, it's not accurate to say that editors decline drafts without good reasons or that they find a reason to decline drafts based on the misleading essay you cited above. That essay is totally incorrect. Reviewers often go out of their way to help improve drafts when they have the time.. However the approach you're suggesting for the AFC process might not be very helpful. We consider many factors in AFDs beyond what you might expect. If you continue this way, you might be causing confusion, especially by leaving unnecessary comments on editors' talk pages including mine.For your comments on my talk page, I was trying to assist a new editor with their draft, and when I noticed the sources were unreliable, I offered to help them remove some. But then I saw Chopper's comment saying there was no need to remove the sources and citing AFC standards in detail. While there's nothing wrong with what you've done, there’s room for improvement. You've even mentioned before that some drafts are incorrectly declined when you could easily move them to mainspace. Please focus your energy in helping rather than blaming reviewers who are doing their best. Cheers! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 03:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @SafariScribe, I don't think this is a good response to Mr.choppers. And I share his concerns that you've been declining articles for strange and sometimes inscrutable reasons. -- asilvering (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- This has been brought up quite frequently recently and I think editors have conflicting opinions. Some believe drafts should only be declined if they aren't notable (i.e. they would fail an AfD), while some believe the standards should be much higher (sources must be in the article, reliable sources, enough inline citations, NPOV, etc.) Per WP:AFCPURPOSE it looks like we should all be doing the former. But then why do we have other decline reasons (v, ilc, npov, etc.)? And should AfC reviewers be doing BEFORE checks if the sources aren't present in the article? I think there needs to be more clarification on this. C F A 💬 21:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- We should be following WP:AFCPURPOSE. Every time this comes up, the answer is that editors might want to apply more stringent standards, but they should not. The other decline reasons are the quickfail criteria and suitability criteria, which are explained below that. The WP:V decline is specifically for this case: Reply
- The problem here is that AFCPURPOSE seems to directly contradict the quick-fail criteria. Yes, it makes sense to decline an article for WP:V if the claim to notability (e.g. a chart position) is unsourced, but what about when large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced? That is not a notability or deletion-related problem. It is a tag-able one. The same thing applies to NPOV issues. They can just be tagged. If AfC's main purpose is to accept articles likely to survive AfDs, and AfD is not cleanup, then we should really only be declining if the topic isn't verifiably notable (or if it is a significant BLP/copyright violation). C F A 💬 02:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- If large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced, you accept and tag, remove the unsourced bits and accept, or leave a comment asking the submitting editor to improve the draft. Nowhere in the quick-fail criteria does it say that an article with an unsourced section should be declined. -- asilvering (talk) 05:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The problem here is that AFCPURPOSE seems to directly contradict the quick-fail criteria. Yes, it makes sense to decline an article for WP:V if the claim to notability (e.g. a chart position) is unsourced, but what about when large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced? That is not a notability or deletion-related problem. It is a tag-able one. The same thing applies to NPOV issues. They can just be tagged. If AfC's main purpose is to accept articles likely to survive AfDs, and AfD is not cleanup, then we should really only be declining if the topic isn't verifiably notable (or if it is a significant BLP/copyright violation). C F A 💬 02:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- We should be following WP:AFCPURPOSE. Every time this comes up, the answer is that editors might want to apply more stringent standards, but they should not. The other decline reasons are the quickfail criteria and suitability criteria, which are explained below that. The WP:V decline is specifically for this case: Reply
Mostini
editI've just requested speedy on Draft:The Thermodynamic Nexus in The Process of Quantum Gravity Sigma ZG Matrix. Took me a while to realise that it's yet another reincarnation of the long-running Mostini saga; only twigged that when I looked at a couple of the 'sources' cited.
These were at some point created by Josammy777, and IIRC there were others involved also, but they've since switched to IP editing from multiple ranges, which makes things more difficult to track.
This has been attempted at so many different titles that I can't remember most of them, but the key words/phrases to watch out for are 'Mostini' / 'Mostini Planet', 'Sigma ZG', 'Alpha & Omega', 'Thermodynamic Sigma', matrix, nexus, etc., as well as the author's (?) name Josammy (in Josammy Ganga, Josammy Technology, Josammy Emporio Foundation, etc.) usually appearing somewhere in there.
Just wanted to flag up here in case someone wasn't aware / didn't remember. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up. For anyone tagging it as G3 in the near future, might be worth pointing to this thread as well just so certain passing admins aren't throwing fits. Primefac (talk) 12:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do we have any other recurring AfC sagas like this one? I wonder if maybe it's worth making a list somewhere. -- asilvering (talk) 19:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not really. Most of the long-term drama is just LTAs and socks trying to push their favourite actor through the process despite them only having been in one b-list film as an extra. Primefac (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do we have any other recurring AfC sagas like this one? I wonder if maybe it's worth making a list somewhere. -- asilvering (talk) 19:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Looking for opinions on Draft:Abhishek Nigam
editI think the subject is now notable enough to be included in Wikipedia. Although the article has WP:PROSELINE issues and the lead section has a little bit of MOS:PUFFERY material, I think it would survive AfD (which is the bar set - no higher)... but I'm not sure - looking for more experienced reviewers. Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the draft has been resubmitted (after being rejected... more than two years ago... for the second time), so I guess a reviewer will take yet another look at it at some point. Is there are reason why you're flagging it up here? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was going to accept it myself, but figured I should get some input (following the guideline at WP:AFCPURPOSE to "ask for help" here). Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- At a quick glance, it looks like he's had some more roles since the article was rejected last, so it's worth considering. But they don't really look like important roles, to me? I'd double-check the references to make sure they don't look like regurgitated press releases before accepting it for sure. -- asilvering (talk) 19:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- He has been in 93 episodes of Ali Baba: Ek Andaaz Andekha and 233 episodes of Hero – Gayab Mode On. Seems like a WP:NACTOR pass to me. I've gone ahead and accepted the draft. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- At a quick glance, it looks like he's had some more roles since the article was rejected last, so it's worth considering. But they don't really look like important roles, to me? I'd double-check the references to make sure they don't look like regurgitated press releases before accepting it for sure. -- asilvering (talk) 19:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was going to accept it myself, but figured I should get some input (following the guideline at WP:AFCPURPOSE to "ask for help" here). Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Draft:Koshy's
editMy submission Draft:Koshy's was rejected as not having enough seconday, independent and reliable sources. I thought I had used several articles from well-known newspapers which described the eatery in great detail and the sources were secondary. I have improved the submission and also notified the original reviewer. Hope that reviewer sees my message. Also posting this here for opinion on my draft and if anyone can help. I am sure anyone here who has been to Koshy's would like to help make it even better. The eatery is iconic though I have been there only once. Not paid. No COIs. Thanks Trvllr1 (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- It appears that you have made a number of changes and resubmitted, so hopefully you have overcome the issues raised by the previous reviewer. As a minor note, your draft was "declined" not "rejected", as "rejection" implies that it cannot (and/or should not) be resubmitted. Good luck! Primefac (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Random article sample sizes
editFun fact: The most common number of sentences in a Wikipedia article is two.
Half of articles have between 5 and 29 sentences. More than 10% of them have just one or two sentences (usually two). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well that depressingly low! KylieTastic (talk) 11:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given how many complaints I see about "all those mass-created one-sentence substubs", these numbers are actually higher than I expected, but maybe my perspective is being skewed by the discussion about Wikipedia:Notability (species), because species articles skew a bit more heavily on the short side (25% have exactly two sentences). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would it be useful to have more information along these lines? @BilledMammal has kindly created a sample article set, and we've been looking at what it can tell us about Wikipedia's current content.
- For example: the 50% of articles in the middle (i.e., from the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile) have these ranges:
- 123–782 words
- 5–29 sentences
- 2–9 refs
- 12–46 links
- Each of these numbers is being calculated separately, so there's not necessarily a single article that has (e.g.,) 338 words + 13 sentences + 4 refs + 23 wikilinks to other articles; it's that when you look at refs alone, regardless of anything else, half the articles have between two and nine refs (with a median of 4). Also, these are refs that the query can currently detect, so it's likely including a few explanatory footnotes and makes no attempt at identifying whether the sources are reliable, independent, etc. It also misses citations that don't use <ref> tags/other detectable elements. And a slightly different group has 5–29 sentences, and a slightly different set has 2–9 refs, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
I accepted a draft for Nassau County Bridge Authority, but had to move the blocking redirect out of the way. My question is whether the redirect needs to be preserved as containing significant history, or can be deleted. Will someone please look at it? My thinking is that it can be deleted, because the significant history was copyvio that has been redacted (revdel'd), so that there no longer is significant history. But I would like a second or third opinion. Should I move it to draft position to point to the article, as is usually done when there is real history, or can it be tagged to go to the great bit bucket in medium earth orbit? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Now with admin tools... I would have just nuke it when processing the draft. 🤣 – robertsky (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see any significant history there; there are a lot of edits but they're all just futzing with the redirect itself. I would have used {{db-afc-move}}. Primefac (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tagged and deleted. McClenon mobile (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see any significant history there; there are a lot of edits but they're all just futzing with the redirect itself. I would have used {{db-afc-move}}. Primefac (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Assigning WikiProjects to Articles
editWhen I accept an arti0cle, the script asks me to assign it to WikiProjects. Sometimes the originator has already assigned WikiProjects to it in draft. Sometimes I know what WikiProjects the new article should be assigned to. But sometimes I am simply not familiar with the WikiProjects in the area. If I am not familiar with the categories in the area, as I usually am not, I tag the article with {{Improve categories}}, and gnomes are requested to assist by assigning the categories. Will the category gnomes also assign WikiProjects? Is there a way to tag a new article to request WikiProject assistance by gnomes? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Probably. Some (even here) would argue that tagging WikiProjects is unnecessary, and some are insistent that every page needs to be assigned to a WikiProject. If you can't think of who would want to be "assigned" a draft, don't feel obligated. There aren't any temples to request a WikiProject or to add a project template, but there are some people who relentlessly (or in the case of Ser Amantio, using an unregistered bot account) add WikiProjects, so it will likely be picked up by someone. Primefac (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Somewhat related - the AFCH script isn't playing nice with the new format of the wikiproject talk page banners and is generating a lot of ugly errors if multiple wikiprojects are added. If there isn't a ticket open for this on phab already, someone ought to start one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Does one of these tickets describe the issue? https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/labels/draft-talk-page-wikitext –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's this one: [1]. Here's an example of it from one I accepted recently. -- asilvering (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's the primary one, but I will say that all of those are inter-connected issues that have cropped up over the years as the banner format and ideology has changed. I suspect a fix for one will likely include fixes for most if not all of them. Primefac (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Posted this as a separate thread... and only then read the above convo. When the submit wizard adds WikiProject tags to the draft talk page, these seem to be newly causing red error messages, see eg. Draft talk:Tony To Chin. The message asks for the banner shell to be added, and the ratings to be applied to the shell. I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that this was changing, so it could be the wizard needs updating to comply with whatever the new practice is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- See Module talk:WikiProject banner § Warnings. I personally disagree with this change, and am fighting it. You are welcome to participate (or not) in the discussion, but just note that I am not necessarily advocating anyone do so (and they should probably mention that they were pointed to that discussion by me).
- That being said, yes, there is a ticket to update the wizard (along with a half-dozen other WPBS-related updates), see the link by Novem above. Primefac (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- We really do need this project either to update the obsolete script or to stop using it. You have been given fair warning and plenty of notice about the changes in the assessment process... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I started an update tonight. It's located here. Comments welcome. I'll leave it open for a few days for code review. Please ping me in a few days to remind me to merge and deploy it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad this is being worked on. In the meantime, I think it crosses a line for MSGJ to be reverting the AFCH edits that produce these warnings (see Talk:Thomas F. Baumert for instance). Warnings are warnings, someone needs to fix them not revert them and sweep them under the rug. It is fine to feed the gnomes while this gets sorted. If the reviewer doesn't do the cleanup after a revert like this, information they added to the article during the accept is likely lost. ~Kvng (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, removing valid projects and details because they are not in the current preferred formatting is ridiculous and if a new user did this they would be getting warnings for vandalism or disruptive editing. The new warnings do make it ugly as, but removing rather than fixing is disruptive that than constructive. WP:PIQA is about having a single assessment, it does not give any validity to remove other information in those banners. Surprised though that a bot had not come along and fixed up before the revert anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like Qwerfjkl (bot) was approved to do these fixups, but looking in it's logs I can not see it doing it anymore. I only checked a few 1000 edits, I tried an edit summary search for "Task 26" but keep getting 502 bad gateway. Qwerfjkl should this be running, and should it have fixed up the AFCH tools bad formatting before it annoyed MSGJ? KylieTastic (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, removing valid projects and details because they are not in the current preferred formatting is ridiculous and if a new user did this they would be getting warnings for vandalism or disruptive editing. The new warnings do make it ugly as, but removing rather than fixing is disruptive that than constructive. WP:PIQA is about having a single assessment, it does not give any validity to remove other information in those banners. Surprised though that a bot had not come along and fixed up before the revert anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad this is being worked on. In the meantime, I think it crosses a line for MSGJ to be reverting the AFCH edits that produce these warnings (see Talk:Thomas F. Baumert for instance). Warnings are warnings, someone needs to fix them not revert them and sweep them under the rug. It is fine to feed the gnomes while this gets sorted. If the reviewer doesn't do the cleanup after a revert like this, information they added to the article during the accept is likely lost. ~Kvng (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I started an update tonight. It's located here. Comments welcome. I'll leave it open for a few days for code review. Please ping me in a few days to remind me to merge and deploy it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- We really do need this project either to update the obsolete script or to stop using it. You have been given fair warning and plenty of notice about the changes in the assessment process... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's this one: [1]. Here's an example of it from one I accepted recently. -- asilvering (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Does one of these tickets describe the issue? https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/labels/draft-talk-page-wikitext –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Somewhat related - the AFCH script isn't playing nice with the new format of the wikiproject talk page banners and is generating a lot of ugly errors if multiple wikiprojects are added. If there isn't a ticket open for this on phab already, someone ought to start one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- ┌──────────────────────────────┘
KylieTastic, Cewbot runs on these pages (pinging operator kanashimi). — Qwerfjkltalk 15:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)- Thanks Qwerfjkl, if so that bot appears to be active adjusting those so probably just backlogged. Can you update User:Qwerfjkl (bot) page to show Task 26 as inactive. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
AFCH WikiProject banner patch is deployed
editSeconds ago I went ahead and deployed an AFCH patch that fixes 6 outstanding bugs related to the wikitext that AFCH writes to draft talk pages. These bugs all involved how AFCH wrote WikiProject banner code. Details can be found here. This patch will take effect in 10 minutes after the gadget cache clears.
Please keep an eye on your draft talk diffs for a couple days for any problems. This was a complete rewrite of that part of the code, so new bugs may spring up. I would appreciate it if you could report diffs of bugs here. This is also a good time for me to work on these types of bugs while I have this particular code top of mind.
This patch should hopefully resolve the problems MSGJ is encountering. Thanks all. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good work Novem Linguae. I have been having quick looks at the code changes but not done a full review. It appears to be working so far example. KylieTastic (talk) KylieTastic (talk) 13:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, there's a blank |class= in that diff. Let's see if this fixes it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes it did - see this KylieTastic (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, there's a blank |class= in that diff. Let's see if this fixes it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is looking great. Thanks for your work on this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're a hero. -- asilvering (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hey Utopes. I see you adding |1= to some of the talk pages, and moving up the WPAFC banner on some of the talk pages. Are these edits necessary? If I am missing something let me know. I can always code AFCH to do these edits for you, if it is worth the effort. But it's my understanding that |1= isn't needed, and the order of WPAFC isn't too important. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Force of habit a bit, I've always had WPAFC as the first banner on a talk page among all the WikiProject banners (as that's often the most "relevant" towards the lifecycle of the draft-to-article). It felt (and still feels as of now) odd to see a WPAFC banner tucked between two other banners for content/material-related WikiProjs. So I've always ensured it's listed first, as it contains vital info about the status of the page when it was a draft, and useful for audits and etc. If that's not built into the gadget, that'd be a personal recommendation of mine to incorporate.
- Per Template:WikiProject banner shell#Parameters, "1=" is the parameter name so if I'm making multiple edits to the banner shell I tend to throw that in there too, adds a bit of clarity towards which param is which. I find it helpful, but it might not be for everyone, which is fair. Utopes (talk / cont) 22:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since the AFCH banner has always (to my knowledge) been placed at the top, I think it's probably helpful if the revised script keeps doing that, since that's where people will look for it. Won't make much of a difference for most articles, but it will for those articles that have half a dozen wikiprojects on them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Just now I patched and deployed both putting WPAFC on top, and adding |1=. I also tweaked the edit summary, and {{OKA}} is now added to the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: Fwiw the "1=" bit might not be super important in the grand scheme; I'm willing to align to whatever most banner shells use (with or without the "1="). That aspect is more on the cosmetic / aesthetic side so if nobody else is putting that on there, I won't either.
- Thanks for the prompt response though, and for prioritizing WPAFC at the top of the shell! o7 Utopes (talk / cont) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking of OKA though, I think I had a situation (at Talk:Katowice Załęże railway station, particularly) where there was a WP banner (AFC), followed by a translated-page template, followed by an OKA banner. I left all of the other banners alone due to the new functionality of the gadget, but would the AFCH capture all of that into the shell, or select only from a list of "approved" banners to shell-ify? Utopes (talk / cont) 23:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I spot checked about 8 articles and about half had |1=, and it made the shell more readable when the shell had a lot of parameters, so I decided to include |1=. I also checked around 5 OKA banner articles and about half had it in the shell, so I decided to write AFCH to include it in the shell from now on. The shellify algorithm grabs any template that starts with WikiProject, Football, or OKA, and I may add more to this list as needed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- If it matters, the OKA template is a wikiproject template, as part of WP:ITW. -- asilvering (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking of OKA though, I think I had a situation (at Talk:Katowice Załęże railway station, particularly) where there was a WP banner (AFC), followed by a translated-page template, followed by an OKA banner. I left all of the other banners alone due to the new functionality of the gadget, but would the AFCH capture all of that into the shell, or select only from a list of "approved" banners to shell-ify? Utopes (talk / cont) 23:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Just now I patched and deployed both putting WPAFC on top, and adding |1=. I also tweaked the edit summary, and {{OKA}} is now added to the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since the AFCH banner has always (to my knowledge) been placed at the top, I think it's probably helpful if the revised script keeps doing that, since that's where people will look for it. Won't make much of a difference for most articles, but it will for those articles that have half a dozen wikiprojects on them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I deployed again just now. Please keep an eye out for bugs. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just got an odd one - double decline notices this KylieTastic (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks unrelated, but still always good to spot and report a bug. I went ahead and filed https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/issues/377. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just got an odd one - double decline notices this KylieTastic (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Category
editCategory:AfC submissions by date/21 August 2024 has not been created at timè of writing — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- It has been created at time of viewing. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- These are normally created by EarwigBot a couple of days in advance, but the bot appears to have halted as it has not edited since the 17th. KylieTastic (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've created User talk:The Earwig#EarwigBot might be down to hopefully alert the bot owner. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed. Bot is back up. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've created User talk:The Earwig#EarwigBot might be down to hopefully alert the bot owner. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Detecting CV without Earwig
editEarwig's Copyvio Detector had been crippled for several weeks now due to an issue with Google credit. How are you all getting your CV checks done? I've been running Earwig with the Use Search Engine option unchecked but is that good enough? ~Kvng (talk) 22:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I've been doing for the last couple weeks while the tool is getting worked on. I've also been manually copying and pasting strings of text into my search engine if I'm suspicious of a copyright violation that the tool hasn't picked up. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
AfC stats
editIs there a way to see how many articles I've accepted/declined? I'm pretty sure I saw a website with that sort of data, but I've lost it.
Additionally, is there a way to see how the drafts backlog has shifted over time (through a graph)?
(Unrelated, but I think a backlog drive should be organized soon-ish. Just feels right.) LR.127 (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you're on WP:AFCP you can click the "reviews" link next to your name. NPR and Admins can also view their stats by going to https://apersonbot.toolforge.org/afchistory/?user=XYZ where XYZ is their username. We have had various backlog stats over the years but currently graphs is out of commission and we do not have anything running currently. Primefac (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- As for a drive, a couple of months ago I might have suggested one, also, when we were hovering (IIRC) around the 3.5-4K mark. Since then, we've been slowly but consistently coming down, and now are at < 2.5K, which is okay, IMO. (If anything, we could benefit from a quality assurance initiative of some sort, to check how well we're all adhering to the 'rules'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We're not getting yelled at (right now anyway) for either declining too many or accepting too much, so that's one QA metric to go by. Primefac (talk) 10:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the weekly stats stopped getting updated (because of the graphs issue) so I can't even do a manual graph to show the history trend. KylieTastic (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- At NPP, we got our backlog graph back up and running, by making our own bot and maybe also doing some data scraping using a Toolforge webservice. I also found Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog chart/daily, which looks like a good format to plug into a bot, and which was turned off a few months ago but can be easily turned back on by editing User:MusikBot/CategoryCounter/Run. I'll talk to some tech people and see what I can do. Please ping me in a week if a nudge is needed :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Part 1 of getting our AFC backlog graph back is complete. @MPGuy2824 setup an off-wiki tool to track the # of unreviewed drafts each day, and this data can be consumed by a bot. https://npptech.toolforge.org/npp/data.php?type=unreviewedDrafts. Now I think @DreamRimmer is going to work on part 2 of this, getting a bot to place a backlog graph image and to update it frequently. This is similar to their BaranBOT task 3 so hopefully it won't be too much trouble. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- At NPP, we got our backlog graph back up and running, by making our own bot and maybe also doing some data scraping using a Toolforge webservice. I also found Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog chart/daily, which looks like a good format to plug into a bot, and which was turned off a few months ago but can be easily turned back on by editing User:MusikBot/CategoryCounter/Run. I'll talk to some tech people and see what I can do. Please ping me in a week if a nudge is needed :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- As for a drive, a couple of months ago I might have suggested one, also, when we were hovering (IIRC) around the 3.5-4K mark. Since then, we've been slowly but consistently coming down, and now are at < 2.5K, which is okay, IMO. (If anything, we could benefit from a quality assurance initiative of some sort, to check how well we're all adhering to the 'rules'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Problem with terminology
editAt the Teahouse, a colleague recently gave the advice: "Rejected means stop, don't go on. Declined means it might be accepted with revision."
I'd love to know which dictionary makes this distinction. Or does it just exist in the minds of AfC reviewers? If so, please pick better terms, as the confusion between the two phrases quoted is a frequent cause of confusion among new editors commenting at The Teahouse and Help Desk. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We've been using this wording since rejection was brought in to use in 2018. Yes, there is sometimes confusion about the terms, but it is easy enough to clarify as you just indicated above. Personally speaking, I find a much greater distinction between rejection and declination, where the former is a hard "you done fucked up" and the latter is more of a polite thing. Of course, this comes as a native English speaker; anecdotally most of the confusion seems to come from ESL speakers (and even more anecdotally, from India).
- As a minor point, coming in and insulting us straight off the bat is a really good way for us to get defensive; there are better ways to start a discussion. Primefac (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, to answer your asinine question, Merriam Webster gives:
decline often implies courteous refusal especially of offers or invitations.
reject implies a peremptory refusal by sending away or discarding.
- So yes, there is a lexicological difference. Primefac (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome to quote the insult you imagine I made, but meanwhile, I didn't say there was no difference in dictionary definitions; I asked which dictionary made the distinction which I quoted. I note you have no source for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You know as well as I do that such a thing doesn't exist; the words are different, and have been used to mean different things by this WikiProject for six years now. The fact that one user has come up with (in my opinion) a short and simple way of remembering those differences does not mean they are wrong. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- "used to mean different things by this WikiProject" Indeed. This is exactly the problem which I seek to resolve. You've already acknowledged that "there is sometimes confusion", and that there is cultural bias in the jargon being used. You have advanced no argument (except, perhaps one equating to "we have always done it this way") why the status quo offers more benefits than does fixing the issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's mostly because I wasn't trying; that is not how you phrased your initial post and not what you appeared to be looking for. Primefac (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- "used to mean different things by this WikiProject" Indeed. This is exactly the problem which I seek to resolve. You've already acknowledged that "there is sometimes confusion", and that there is cultural bias in the jargon being used. You have advanced no argument (except, perhaps one equating to "we have always done it this way") why the status quo offers more benefits than does fixing the issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You know as well as I do that such a thing doesn't exist; the words are different, and have been used to mean different things by this WikiProject for six years now. The fact that one user has come up with (in my opinion) a short and simple way of remembering those differences does not mean they are wrong. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome to quote the insult you imagine I made, but meanwhile, I didn't say there was no difference in dictionary definitions; I asked which dictionary made the distinction which I quoted. I note you have no source for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, to answer your asinine question, Merriam Webster gives:
- Primefac, I think asinine is too strong a word, although your defensive response is understandable. User:Pigsonthewing, it seems like the confusion is on your end because you don't quite grasp the AFC process and terminologies. Instead of asking for clarification or seeking help to understand the terms, you jumped to conclusions with your question, implying that the phrases in question only exist in the minds of AFC reviewers. Really?To clarify, "rejection" as it was already explained by Primefac, applies to drafts that are not notable and will not be for the time being, or falls under WP:WWIN to thr sight of God and man, and it's given no option for resubmission except in rare cases of re-review. "Decline" means the draft fails to meet the WP:AFCSTANDARDS. Perhaps, hed suggest that the decline message should exclude Teahouse as where to ai question about the decline to avoid all this confusion, as some editors from there seem to misinterpret AFC wording and try to favor unintentionally non-notable drafts in the name of fighting for new cheated editors. Next time, please ask questions instead of making assumptions or final conclusions. Cheers! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 12:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no confusion on my part, and no assumptions. I fully understand the process; having both submitted articles via AfC and reviewed and rejected and published others' submissions. The confusion is experienced - frequently experienced, as I said - by the people to whom I referred; not least the individual to whom the quoted advice was given. But thank you for confirming my point, that the distinction is internal to AfC. That, no doubt, is why it is often misunderstood by people new to it, and why less ambiguous phraseology will benefit all concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC).
- If you have an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears (and yes, this is a genuine statement, not sarcasm). Primefac (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Find an alternate phrase instead of "Declined"; one which actually relates to what is being done - maybe "Referred for further work". I'm not precious about the exact phrase, nor clear whether a single-word verb is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- This comes up semi-regularly but I've not yet seen a suggestion that gets more approval that the status-quo. "Referred for further work" along with similar suggestion is often criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted which is often not true. Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable with more work. Note that the notice posted on the submitters page does not even mention the word decline. The message on the submission does though but explains the issue - people just don't/won't read what it says. A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined and I think regardless of what wording is used for a declined draft they will still see, and refer to it, as a rejection, which is what happened in this case. KylieTastic (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
"This comes up semi-regularly"
I'm not surprised. As I say, the confusion occurs frequently."criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted"
Is there ever a case where an article is "declined" without a prose comment suggesting or implying that further work should be done? If not, the objection seems spurious."Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable"
Isn't that the job of the prose component? The word "Declined" does not say that.- Reply
- I don't think there's too much wrong with the terminology. Yes, it may be that it's no immediately obvious to a newbie, but then neither is the difference between 'page' and 'article', or that between AfC and AfD, or any number of terms of the trade. Until the meaning is explained to you, and then it's usually clear; it's called learning the ropes. Of the million things one needs to learn about Wikipedia, I don't see this one as a biggie. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- This comes up semi-regularly but I've not yet seen a suggestion that gets more approval that the status-quo. "Referred for further work" along with similar suggestion is often criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted which is often not true. Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable with more work. Note that the notice posted on the submitters page does not even mention the word decline. The message on the submission does though but explains the issue - people just don't/won't read what it says. A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined and I think regardless of what wording is used for a declined draft they will still see, and refer to it, as a rejection, which is what happened in this case. KylieTastic (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Find an alternate phrase instead of "Declined"; one which actually relates to what is being done - maybe "Referred for further work". I'm not precious about the exact phrase, nor clear whether a single-word verb is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you have an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears (and yes, this is a genuine statement, not sarcasm). Primefac (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no confusion on my part, and no assumptions. I fully understand the process; having both submitted articles via AfC and reviewed and rejected and published others' submissions. The confusion is experienced - frequently experienced, as I said - by the people to whom I referred; not least the individual to whom the quoted advice was given. But thank you for confirming my point, that the distinction is internal to AfC. That, no doubt, is why it is often misunderstood by people new to it, and why less ambiguous phraseology will benefit all concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC).
- I have taken the liberty of improving the iconography on the reject talk page message to use the same more emphatic stop icon used on the draft page. This should help especially if this is an ESL issue. ~Kvng (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
In the two days since I raised the matter here, I have seen at east three more editors, at the Teahouse or Help Desk, who are confused by this issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Got any ideas for new terms? I can't think of anything better than decline and reject. Could change the two terms to "fix and resubmit" and "do not resubmit", but then those don't work well as nouns. "Your articles for creation submission has been tagged as 'do not resubmit'" is a bit of a mouthful. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reply
- Is your proposal to change declined to "Referred for further work"? What do you propose changing rejected to? –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reply
- Separately, I suggest unchecking Teahouse for editors whose drafts have been reviewed and declined/rejected. What they always ask is about their draft's review and ways to improve it. Both AFC helpdesk and Teahouse should re-examine the draft and corresponding decline or reject messages when providing feedback right? @Pigsonthewing, I understand your point, but my concern is that we need to focus on constructive guidance, such as giving additional sources, ways to delete peacock-promotional language, etc., rather than simply knowing whether a draft was rejected or declined. In this context, 'decline' is a more suitable term for not accepting a submission, whereas 'reject' comes across as more absolute and dismissive, implying 'this can never be accepted'. On another note, reject gives no room for resubmission while decline does, hence if one says their draft was rejected but actually, was declined, it isn't a problem. What they need is how to go further. It can then be a different case if it was actually rejected, then tell the editor that there is no room for resubmission with reasons. Is that a big deal? Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 13:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Philosophically, probably not a big deal, but I believe the concern here is that there is any confusion in the first place. I understand where Andy's coming from, but unless someone can come up with a more clear (but still as succinct) way of separating this "decline/reject" issue I think TEA helpers will just have to include the explanation in their answer. Primefac (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not so: some confusion is inevitable. The concern is that there is frequent - and avoidable - confusion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, I have a related question - how is this confusion dealt with? If someone comes to TEA with a declined draft and they say "my draft was rejected, help!" do they still receive help, or is the knee-jerk reply from the first helper "your draft was rejected you can't do anything about that"? Like... if someone says the wrong word, and the person helping them knows they used the wrong word, do they still try to give advice? Primefac (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- They get helpful advice, of course. First to clear up the confusion caused by the terminology, and then, to address the reason for the draft not being published. The former, in addition to being an unnecessary cognitive load on the new editors, is an unnecessary burden on Teahouse volunteers. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, I have a related question - how is this confusion dealt with? If someone comes to TEA with a declined draft and they say "my draft was rejected, help!" do they still receive help, or is the knee-jerk reply from the first helper "your draft was rejected you can't do anything about that"? Like... if someone says the wrong word, and the person helping them knows they used the wrong word, do they still try to give advice? Primefac (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not so: some confusion is inevitable. The concern is that there is frequent - and avoidable - confusion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reply
- Philosophically, probably not a big deal, but I believe the concern here is that there is any confusion in the first place. I understand where Andy's coming from, but unless someone can come up with a more clear (but still as succinct) way of separating this "decline/reject" issue I think TEA helpers will just have to include the explanation in their answer. Primefac (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Andy, look at what I am saying: it's still not bad advising a rejected draft, it can help the editor and may not for the draft anymore. However, Teahouse is to help editors right? It serves as a general help guide to the editors to know what -and-what to do to the drat and subsequent articles. If someone says "my draft was rejected (though it was declined)", won't you help? If another says "my draft was rejected (though it was rejected)", won't you also help? At this point, I think it is not due for change because it serves as a general term out here: decline equals to reject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 16:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with your former point; but the issue you discuss is not what I am talking about. Your last sentence, however, makes no sense, since AFC folk keep telling us that the two terms do have different meanings. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was referring to what outside folk will think about: decline equals reject. I don't seem to find what you said is the best to replace. Can I see it here? Thanks. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- See what? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was referring to what outside folk will think about: decline equals reject. I don't seem to find what you said is the best to replace. Can I see it here? Thanks. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with your former point; but the issue you discuss is not what I am talking about. Your last sentence, however, makes no sense, since AFC folk keep telling us that the two terms do have different meanings. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia for Hailey Gordon
editHello, how would one go about requesting the creation of a Wikipedia page for an athlete? I’m interested in the wikipedia for Hailey Gordon- Mexico national team soccer player. 2605:C840:403:55D8:B97C:19CE:A6C:F050 (talk) 01:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- We don't really have an article writing service. (It's WP:RA but no one uses it.) Your best bet is to write a draft yourself using the article wizard. Before you start writing though, you should do a search for newspaper articles and/or books covering this player in depth. If such sources don't exist, then this player doesn't pass WP:GNG and won't qualify for an article. If you provide links to some sources, WP:TEAHOUSE can help with advice on whether or not this person passes GNG. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Major article wizard malfunction on talk page
editAdding talk page classification tags through the submission wizard adds them as plain templates without the shell, which immediately produced error messages as with this diff. Looking through recent submissions this seems to be affecting everyone. Orchastrattor (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- cc SD0001. I think the fix is to wrap the banners in {{WikiProject Banner Shell|. I recently updated AFCH to do this. For coding simplicity, I even wrap single banners in the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-submit-wizard/issues/1 if anyone wants to implement. I'm not sure why the banners are emitting errors even when they have no class param specified. In the meantime, it looks they'll be automatically fixed by Cewbot. – SD0001 (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- See this discussion: despite being objected to, the change to make these errors show up still persists. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I imagine the goal of the error message is to reduce the # of articles in Category:WikiProject banners without banner shells that need manual cleanup. In that sense, the error message is probably working well. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is, but there's a bot that's sorting that stuff out. The huge error message is unnecessary, never mind the fact that it's not required (though I do recognise there is a growing consensus to use WPBS which I am happy to respect). Primefac (talk) 15:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I imagine the goal of the error message is to reduce the # of articles in Category:WikiProject banners without banner shells that need manual cleanup. In that sense, the error message is probably working well. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think its because the templates automatically try to enter "draft" as their class, the diff I provided stopped showing errors once it was accepted and just moved into unclassified instead. Orchastrattor (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- See this discussion: despite being objected to, the change to make these errors show up still persists. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-submit-wizard/issues/1 if anyone wants to implement. I'm not sure why the banners are emitting errors even when they have no class param specified. In the meantime, it looks they'll be automatically fixed by Cewbot. – SD0001 (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
A Template Foible
editPlease look at Draft:Comet C/2023 V4 (Camarasa-Duszanowicz) assuming it is currently unreviewed.
The bottom line in the yellow "Please review me" box says:
- "Warning: This page should probably be located at Draft:2023 V4 (Camarasa-Duszanowicz) (move)."
This has changed the word order of the (current) draft title, and removed the "/".
I'm not at all sure that this is important but it is worthy of mention.
If you happen to review the draft as well that works, too! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 10:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- In other words, the / is causing it to think this is a subpage of 'Comet C'. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a namespace check, which is supposed to be for when it's in a sandbox or other user subpage. See line 46 of Template:AfC submission/tools. Not sure the check in the draft space is strictly necessary (will think about it). Primefac (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
This is a different acceptance, and I'm happy to take your comments on it.
The draft appears to have been part of a student project that ended in April this year. No editors who edited it have been active since then. Declining it, as I did at first, was just going to see this go im six months as a G13
Since none of "the original team" appear to remain I decided to unroll a larger team - the community as whole. So I migrated the AFC comments I'd just left to the talk page and accepted it, tagging it for cleanup.
This leads me to the question I want to pose to you. Should we rip our way through the oldest drafts on this type of basis pretty much as a matter of course, pushing anything just better than the borderline up to mainspace with a detailed set of comments on what we feel needs to be done (unless we choose to do those things ourselves)?
If we took a few each every other day we'd probably not need another backlog drive! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 20:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since this is a likely WP:NPROF pass at AfD, I would have accepted (and tagged) it if I'd come across it, myself. But if you've got anything that looks both borderline and abandoned, and it's about anything related to women, I've had some great success posting short lists of that kind of thing at WP:WIRED. Also, many people on that project are real wizards when it comes to historical newspaper searches, so if no one there manages to find evidence of notability, I feel reasonably confident that no one else could, either. -- asilvering (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
12 pages in the unassessed AFC backlog remain up for grabs
edit...and from the moment of this writing, they may not be long for Wikipedia in the next how many weeks unless some action is taken. After I spent countless days grading hundreds and hundreds of articles in an ambitious, thankless one-man task--a few of which were never attended to since the early 2010s--it's time we finally discussed their chances for a change before it's too soon.
At press time, two in the backlog--Nathaniel Jenkins and Prateek Raj, both BLPs--are under scrutiny at AFD; no further comments on those. Anyway, on with the chaff we found within the wheat--listed alphabetically. (All have been tagged for {{notability}} unless otherwise noted; tag dates, and source-hunting links, are provided next to their titles.)
- 2023 World Seniors Darts Champion of Champions (April 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Abki Baar 400 Paar (June 2024; per talk page--but this might survive nonetheless) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Alsace20 (September 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- The Dream Wanderer (January 2019) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Nanjing Week (November 2021) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- National Earthquake Hazards Reduction Program (November 2022) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Rountree, Springfield (February 2019) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- ShipSpace (September 2016) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Society of Classical Poets (November 2020) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Soroush Cinema ({{local}}, April 2018) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- WDC UK Matchplay (February 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- John T. Wilson (born 1861) (October 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
As an eventualist/incrementalist, I may be a bit sorry if they end up delisted. But these topics, diverse as they may be, do matter to someone, somewhere. So as it stands, wishing those willing to save those topics good luck--and thanks to the AFC reviewers/participants alike for all your hard work. (Feel free to leave me talk-page feedback.)
Maybe it's time I, an AFC drafter myself, took brief breaks from WP as other off-site commitments compete for my time and attention. All that grading was already overwhelming to begin with... --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 15:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Are these just 12 AFC accepts that have not been rated? And you are asking for us to rate them on the talk page in the banner shell? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not yet rated, and in need of viable sources. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 22:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I rated them all. Not sure if this is really an AFC matter. Some of these articles are years old. Once they pass AFC, then it's usually up to gnomes to rate them, the draft author and WP:ARS to try to save them if they're nominated for deletion, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, I was asking for others to add reliable sources to those articles or nominate them for deletion if unsuccessful, not rate them. Hope you understood. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 00:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- They've passed both AFC and NPP, so this may be outside of our scope. But I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, I was asking for others to add reliable sources to those articles or nominate them for deletion if unsuccessful, not rate them. Hope you understood. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 00:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I rated them all. Not sure if this is really an AFC matter. Some of these articles are years old. Once they pass AFC, then it's usually up to gnomes to rate them, the draft author and WP:ARS to try to save them if they're nominated for deletion, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not yet rated, and in need of viable sources. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 22:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)