Automakers hedge their bets with plug-in hybrids as EV sales slow
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It seems really obvious that, for now, hybrids are the best solution generally. I have no doubt that many people here who live in deeply urban areas are already best served by BEV's and that BEV's are the final, future solution.
But right now, the infrastructure for pure BEV's just isn't there in the rest of the country, either for long-distance travel or those living in apartments that are older than 5 years old. A PHEV can charge itself at need, and while that may not be the "perfect" solution, it's a "good enough" solution for now, while the charging infrastructure is built out to where it can support BEV's everywhere.
But right now, the infrastructure for pure BEV's just isn't there in the rest of the country, either for long-distance travel or those living in apartments that are older than 5 years old. A PHEV can charge itself at need, and while that may not be the "perfect" solution, it's a "good enough" solution for now, while the charging infrastructure is built out to where it can support BEV's everywhere.
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Given the current infrastructure of the US and a large minority of citizens aggressively against EV adoption, hybrid seems like the only feasible stopgap at this time. This seems to be developing the same way incandescent lights got phased out. Lots of people bitching and moaning, but we'll get there eventually.
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There aren't the supply chains big enough to support everyone building full EVs. Especially with the obsession market forces which treat EVs as premium or "halo" vehicles; a single Hummer EV with a 210kW battery could make three-ish smaller, lighter, EVs. Profit margins also suck on smaller vehicles; better to sell a big, expensive, car with a long loan period.
Things suck, and without a change in policies/subsidies, this won't change quickly. Sorry to be such a downer.
Things suck, and without a change in policies/subsidies, this won't change quickly. Sorry to be such a downer.
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a) Sales are not slowing, they are still increasing. The rate at which sales are increasing is not as high as they would like.
b) It is price. Sane interest rates mean people can no longer buy ridiculously expensive high end cars. EVs are getting hit because the majority of models available fall in the high end range. We need more reasonably priced options across the board, especially for EVs.
b) It is price. Sane interest rates mean people can no longer buy ridiculously expensive high end cars. EVs are getting hit because the majority of models available fall in the high end range. We need more reasonably priced options across the board, especially for EVs.
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If you can't charge a BEV then you're better off with a normal hybrid than a PHEV since it'll be running a less efficient, more expensive hybrid anyways.
That said, I'm personally looking forward to a PHEV pickup, cover 99% of my non-towing trips as an EV and still allow me to tow my trailer on cross-country trips. They also have the unique ability to run the trailer systems, including AC while away from the grid for days at a time while not risking being stranded.
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Really? I see non-Toyota PHEVs on the roads and they seem to work just fine.
It is true that Toyotas have small batteries. That means they burn more gasoline. This isn't clearly an advantage to my eyes.
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As a PHEV owner, I love it. Great for camping! I'd rather have an electric, but the infrastructure isn't there for me to get to a lot of spots that I go to.
I tend to average 4.7l/100km / 50 mpg when I do long distance driving - a full tank gets me about 1,200 km / 745 mi - and I use no gas at all if I drive when I'm in town.
I tend to average 4.7l/100km / 50 mpg when I do long distance driving - a full tank gets me about 1,200 km / 745 mi - and I use no gas at all if I drive when I'm in town.
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If you can L2 charge at home, EV is nearly a no brainer. If you can’t, the charging infrastructure could improve a bit.
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EV charging infrastructure is nowhere near where it needs to be (in Australia, at least) - with peak-time lines and stupidly-long wait times - see, eg, https://www.news.com.au/technology/...a/news-story/f10932fbec445c9cda289f28e7e05b68 and https://au.news.yahoo.com/tesla-pho...hicle-sales-surge-in-australia-025055517.html
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What does "pretentious retrogression" mean?
I don't get how those two words go together.
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If you can charge easily and frequently, PHEV makes some sense. Otherwise, it makes almost no sense; either a non-plugin hybrid with a much smaller battery and higher efficiency, or a BEV with a much larger battery that you only need to recharge once a week, would make much more sense.
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Tesla is no longer contributing to charging infrastructure, or did you miss the news the last 2 weeks?
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I'm all for a nice plug in hybrid for my next family van. I imagine much of the time it will be largely running electric only for typical short trips and so on.
I just wish Honda or Toyota would get into it already...
I just wish Honda or Toyota would get into it already...
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It's certainly an unpopular opinion in Norway, where very nearly 90% of new cars are EVs and about 2% are PHEVs.
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For people who live in cities, apartment buildings, etc where 'plug in' infrastructure is not available or very limited, actual hybrid vehicles make complete sense. I love that my Kia Sorento hybrid gets about 37 mpg. It seats 7 people and some space in the back. I would buy a gas guzzler over a plug-in hybrid because we simply do not have the infrastructure in NYC to make it a viable option. For those with a house and park their cars in the garage everyday I get it but until there is a 'plug' for every car your apartment building it doesn't make sense to fill up your tank and then drive 20 miles to plug it in.
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That used to be true but it's not anymore. My Honda Clarity PHEV has those traits, as did my Chevy Volt. I've genrally been very happy with both cars, aside from rather rapid battery degradation on the Volt.
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Gah, this obsession with people and the Hummer EV drives me nuts. I literally saw my first Hummer EV Tuesday and yet it seems about at least one in ten and maybe closer to one in five cars anymore is a BEV (I realize my geography plays a role in this ratio). The Hummer EV is the definition of a niche car, they are not being produced in any number that would dramatically affect the ability to make other BEVs.
So far they've sold a grand total of less than 5000 Hummer EVs while Tesla is selling 10x that many in a month. The Hummer EV is simply not displacing a hypothetical fleet of smaller BEVs.
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Tesla haven't shut down their infrastructure.
Edit: yet. They haven't yet shut down their infrastructure.
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We got plugin hybrid and it's great. Last year locally I think we used less than 1 tank of gas, but for vacation we drove the kids up to Canada without worrying about charging. Since you have the gas backup fast charging is irrelevant and I normally just use a 120v wall plug even though we have 240 wired to the garage.
I'm surprised this isn't more popular. Seems like the best of both worlds, especially for people that need tons of range or don't have fast charging handy.
I'm surprised this isn't more popular. Seems like the best of both worlds, especially for people that need tons of range or don't have fast charging handy.
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Musk in a manic phase fired the entire supercharger division. All of them, there is literally nobody at Tesla working on Supercharger projects, nobody left to hire contractors to perform maintenance, etc.
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We have a 2023 Pacifica plug-in EV and it's great for us. We do 80-90% of the miles EV, but it's not a car I would have been comfortable being EV-only (not that it was an option for minivans yet)
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I have not been - nor will be - in the market for a BEV any time soon. However a PHEV is exactly what I am looking for. I'm an hour or so outside of Pittsburg - not exactly deep rural America - and the EV infrastructure is minimal here. For my normal day-to-day go to the grocery store and whatnot a BEV would be fine... but if I only have one car, it needs to support more than that. And for a full blown BEV I have another 2-3k to upgrade my electric service in my house on top of the cost of the car - and that's if I do most of the electrical work myself. A PHEV can get away with a smaller electrical footprint that fits in my existing home infrastructure with just one extra 30a 240v circuit (hell - it would get by on my existing 20a 120v circuit if needed).
I have family that lives about 5 hours away... I can't quite do that drive on one charge in most BEV's... and even if I could, my family lives in a rural area where I couldn't recharge for the trip home. So having to fully charge up when I'm almost there changes the length of that trip to "can go straight through with a quick 5 min potty break" to adding at least an hour - probably more.
I do regular home improvement on my home... I can't afford to keep two different cars, so a tiny BEV won't cut it so I want something bigger (have my eye on a the Volvo XC60 Recharge) so I can solve multiple problems. Yeah, yeah... rent a truck for that stuff... but that's a whole other level of inconvenience.
So yeah... the rapid sunset of PHEV was a mistake from a customer market perspective for ME. And I know I'm not alone.
I have family that lives about 5 hours away... I can't quite do that drive on one charge in most BEV's... and even if I could, my family lives in a rural area where I couldn't recharge for the trip home. So having to fully charge up when I'm almost there changes the length of that trip to "can go straight through with a quick 5 min potty break" to adding at least an hour - probably more.
I do regular home improvement on my home... I can't afford to keep two different cars, so a tiny BEV won't cut it so I want something bigger (have my eye on a the Volvo XC60 Recharge) so I can solve multiple problems. Yeah, yeah... rent a truck for that stuff... but that's a whole other level of inconvenience.
So yeah... the rapid sunset of PHEV was a mistake from a customer market perspective for ME. And I know I'm not alone.
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I believe the average daily commute for most is under 50 miles, but that doesn't mean those people NEVER drive long distances.
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This is absolutely the truth. They, all EV vendors in the US, should not have all attacked the high end ($$) market looking for easy money. There's only so many rich people out there. The time for a middle class priced EV was yesterday.
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Gee, it's almost like the majority of EVs are over $40,000 and only so many people are able (or want to) spend that much on a new car. There's a reason the Chevrolet Bolt is so popular in areas where the infrastructure exists.
And as far as charging goes– charging speed is going to matter the most on my next EV. Waiting an hour to get to 80% after only driving for an hour and a half is not feasible for longer road trips.
I don't mind taking 15 minute breaks every few hours; it's perfect for road trips that wind up being 8 or more hours. You wind up less exhausted after. That said, an actual 300 mile or more range is the sweet spot for EVs for me.
Lower than that, and it's not practical for road trips (you wind up charging too frequently). Higher than that, and the battery is too expensive.
...I'd love an EV that goes 540 miles on a single tank like my old Prius though.
And as far as charging goes– charging speed is going to matter the most on my next EV. Waiting an hour to get to 80% after only driving for an hour and a half is not feasible for longer road trips.
I don't mind taking 15 minute breaks every few hours; it's perfect for road trips that wind up being 8 or more hours. You wind up less exhausted after. That said, an actual 300 mile or more range is the sweet spot for EVs for me.
Lower than that, and it's not practical for road trips (you wind up charging too frequently). Higher than that, and the battery is too expensive.
...I'd love an EV that goes 540 miles on a single tank like my old Prius though.
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Yeah. I think there are two things happening here:
- We've exhausted the "early adopter" phase for EVs. People who will buy one because they're cool already have one; the people who are left need to be convinced and it's a somewhat hard sell.
- The biggest champion of EVs and charging infrastructure has gone soft on the future of both, so there's something of a crisis of confidence about the future of EV adoption.
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Norway is trying to shake off all use of petroleum. Encouraging hybrids throws a lifeline to oil. You may not like that statement, but it's true. Additionally, Norway is in the process of divesting the country's sovereign fund away from oil. That's how serious they are.
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There's two things happening here:
- the auto industry wants to put out a false message, so that we slow down transitioning to EVs, allowing them to make more easy money on ICEVs.
- some people who are predisposed to be skeptical about EVs are ignoring the data about EV sales continuing to rise and just buying the auto industry message.
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The only car on the market that takes an hour to get to 80% is the Leaf, and then only if you got the battery warm. Don't buy that car. All other cars on the market are the 30 minutes every couple hours type, or faster.
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There's also still enough places that prohibit plugging in EVs to charge them adding more headache to have to stop and wait at a charging station vs charge it while parked.
The parking garage at my father's office they sent out emails threatening to charge people plugging EVs in with utility theft. The place I work the landlord sent a nastygram to all the tenants when a visitor plugged a Tesla into an outdoor outlet claiming it was a safety hazard and utility theft because the outlets are only permitted to be used by the grounds maintenance personal. Next to my office at a hotel there were people semi-regularly charging a Tesla in the "premium-ultra-elite-member" reserved parking spaces but the hotel has since blocked off that portion of their lot (unsure if its related but I haven't seen anyone there plugged in with an EV anywhere at the hotel lot since).
PHEVs seem like a good middleground if you need to go farther and have fewer places you are allowed to plug in. You get to plug in when its available, and have a reasonably efficient gas car when you can't plug in. It can also help with the comparatively poor highway range EVs have vs gas cars.
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What do you consider "deeply urban?" You have to drive past a cornfield to get to my house. I can hear cows from my backyard. There is no public transportation to my neighborhood, and going anywhere means driving on a road with a 50mph speed limit. And a BEV works perfectly for us.
"Deeply urban" must mean "less than 100 miles from the grocery store" if you think a BEV only works in urban environments.
If you live in single family housing, which covers a lot of Americans, a BEV works great. You don't need charging infrastructure around the city/town where you live/shop/play/etc. You need charging infrastructure along travel corridors.
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I also vote for PHEV resurgence - for me it will be a company car, i regularly travel 250-500 miles and EV charging in my shithole region is not there by a longshot.
Two problems i see - price. PHEV are very close to BEV. if they can lower it more it will be a big wind to sails.
Second, EU has a "problem" that a lot of PHEV were bought as company cars to sales people as they carry a big salary tax discount to employees salary if they get company car.
But company still pays all fuel cost
so very low incentive (basically employees conscience) to charge and not drive it as a normal hybrid.
When bought as personal car - big advantage can be had in fuel cost. Comes back to point one - price needs to come down somewhat.
Two problems i see - price. PHEV are very close to BEV. if they can lower it more it will be a big wind to sails.
Second, EU has a "problem" that a lot of PHEV were bought as company cars to sales people as they carry a big salary tax discount to employees salary if they get company car.
But company still pays all fuel cost
so very low incentive (basically employees conscience) to charge and not drive it as a normal hybrid.When bought as personal car - big advantage can be had in fuel cost. Comes back to point one - price needs to come down somewhat.
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