Commons:Categories for discussion/2021/02/Category:Ireland vs Republic of Ireland category scheme

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Category:Ireland

[edit]
See also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/04/Category:Ireland.
See also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/08/Category:Ireland.

There should be a parallel scheme for Ireland that always has two sub-categories: Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland categories will similarly usually have two parents: Ireland and the United Kingdom. The Republic will have only one parent: Ireland. --Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:46, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This was opened in a strange way, then closed, but I've re-opened it to get further discussion. After a discussion in 2018 (Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/04/Category:Ireland) there was a decision to use Category:Ireland as the category for the island (encompassing the country Category:Republic of Ireland and the sudvision of the United Kingdom Category:Northern Ireland, rather than in place of the Republic of Ireland. It has been a great deal of work separating media between the two, and "X in Ireland" categories still often retain images from both (yet are subcategories of "x by country"). I've been working to separate them, but it has taken time.
In many cases, it makes sense to keep a category "in Ireland" - if we are talking about landforms, nature, culture, and other elements that ignore borders. But in places where an object is clearly fixed in either the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland, I don't see the need to have an "X in Ireland" parent category.
For example, once we had Category:Playing fields in Northern Ireland and Category:Playing fields in the Republic of Ireland, I deleted Category:Playing fields in Ireland. Laurel Lodged took offence to this deletion and recreated Category:Playing fields in Ireland with its two subcategories. The parent category, Category:Sports venues in Ireland also has just other two subcategories (by location). By Laurel Lodged's logic, it's important that we also create Category:Athletics venues in Ireland‎, Category:Basketball venues in Ireland‎, Category:Cricket grounds in Ireland‎, and so forth, so that each one can contain two subcategories (1 for NI and 1 for RoF). I think that's unhelpful and overly complicated.
A useful equivalent for comparison is Category:Great Britain which doesn't contain Category:Playing fields in Great Britain, despite the fact that such a category could contain Category:Playing fields in England, Category:Playing fields in Wales, and Category:Playing fields in Scotland.
Sorry for the long wall of text. I hope this clears things up. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Crouch, Swale who opened the previous discussion on this topic. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:32, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes per w:WP:IRE-CATS there should be "X in Ireland", "X in the Republic of Ireland" and "X in Northern Ireland" I started splitting after the 1st CFD though there's probably more to do and I temporarily left the island and state with "Ireland" categories until such splitting had been completed. We don't generally appear to use "X in Great Britain" though. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:09, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: To clarify, you think it's worthwhile to have Category:Basketball venues in Ireland‎ with two subcategories Category:Basketball venues in the Republic of Ireland‎ and Category:Basketball venues in Northern Ireland‎? And so forth for absolutely every category, divided by colour and so forth? - Themightyquill (talk) 07:49, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: Sorry for the confusion. I was a bit rushed that day. Yes - it's worthwhile to have Category:Basketball venues in Ireland‎ with two subcategories Category:Basketball venues in the Republic of Ireland‎ and Category:Basketball venues in Northern Ireland‎. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And to clarify, what will be the parent for Category:Basketball venues in Ireland? Surely not Category:Basketball venues by country which will house Category:Basketball venues in the Republic of Ireland and Category:Basketball venues in the United Kingom. We have no Category:Basketball venues in Europe or Category:Basketball venues by region, so it will need to go in Category:Basketball venues. And so forth for a great variety of other "in Ireland" categories that will have similarly broad parent categories and only two child categories. - Themightyquill (talk) 18:31, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also take note that not everything can be separated between the two nations. Notably in sports where there are unified teams (but still for sports locations like stadiums and playfields we should be able to separate them, even though there are sport teams and cofederations which will remain in "Ireland"). This makes a mix where we sometimes need the 3 categories that are all relevant, or just 1 for whole Ireland (rarely), or 2 for each nation but not with a parent (most frequent case, except for very frequent major topics like Geography, History, Culture, that still need the 3). verdy_p (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'd just like to know where you folks intend to put all these "in Ireland" categories. "X by country" doesn't work since we're talking about the Island not the country. If you're really going to use "in Ireland" for every single category, you'll eventually need a way to link Category:Spoons in Ireland to Category:Spoons. I'm not sure Category:Spoons by island will be well received. -- Themightyquill (talk) 09:40, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Spoons from Ireland; Category:Spoons from the Republic of Ireland; Category:Spoons from Northern Ireland and finally Category:Spoons from the United Kingdom. I don't see a problem here @Themightyquill: . Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:47, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You've listed child categories, whereas my point is: What are the parent categories for Category:Spoons from Ireland? Category:Spoons from Europe? Category:Spoons by island? -- Themightyquill (talk) 13:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Subsuming Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/08/Category:Ireland into this one as it appears to essentially cover the same issue. Josh (talk) 18:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Laurel Lodged, Themightyquill, Crouch, Swale, Soumya-8974, and Verdy p: I have linked the prior discussions on this above for reference, as ongoing discussion about Ireland categorization continues here. Josh (talk) 18:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • My 2 eurocents:
    • Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland: category for anything that falls into the administrative boundaries of the two said countries. I.e: politics of the Republic of Ireland; sports venues in Northern Ireland, politics from the Republic of Ireland, sportspeople from Northern Ireland.
    • Ireland: anything cultural or regarding the whole island, i.e.: nature of Ireland, poets from Ireland, writers from Ireland, rugby union in Ireland (not the same for association football because each country of Ireland has their separate national team). Under this respect, it's perfectly normal that a person can be classified under both rugby union players from Ireland and, for example, sportspeople from Northern Ireland because they can be a rugby union player for Ireland coming from Northern Ireland. -- Blackcat 19:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • w:w:WP:IRE-CATS gives guidance on this namely its normal to have "X in Ireland", "X in the Republic of Ireland" and "X in Northern Ireland" except in cases like sports teams which are all island scope, small categories where its better to be mixed andthe likes of Category:Gaeltacht places in County Galway which aren't all island scope. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Question @Laurel Lodged, Themightyquill, Blackcat, and Crouch, Swale: Forgive me if I am missing something, but it seems like there is a general consensus to maintain Ireland with items common to the island/region as a whole with Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland representing the political entities (countries) with contents that are specific to one or the other. Can we close this on that basis or is there something further to hammer out here that I missed? Josh (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshbaumgartner: as long as when I write "Rugby union in Ireland" is clear that we are talking about the whole island of Ireland, I agree with you. -- Blackcat 21:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Blackcat: Naturally, this would be consistent with your previously stated 2 eurocents. Josh (talk) 16:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes per w:WP:IRE-CATS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 06:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
close this on that basis Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with creating "Ireland" categories as parents for every "Republic of Ireland" category. We don't need an "of Ireland" category for every object in each country. We don't do that for Category:Hispaniola or the other Category:International islands either because it creates a standalone category tree with no logical parent. I'm fine to concede "of Ireland" categories for transnational nature and culture, but Laurel Lodged is not willing to make that compromise. -- Themightyquill (talk) 07:27, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's because Ireland is a special case in international law. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:36, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Laurel Lodged: How so? What international law? -- Themightyquill (talk) 13:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In Wikipedia, we have en:Category:Association football people in Ireland which breaks down by NI and ROI. I see no reason why Commons should not mirror this categorigal structure.@Themightyquill: 185.114.160.101 10:41, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't how that responds to my concerns. If we have Category:Association football people in Ireland, the logical parent category for the "Association football people" part of the tree is what? Category:Association football people in Europe? Category:Association football people by island? It either creates a standalone category tree (largely useless) or necessitates a whole bunch of other categories with little other purpose. -- Themightyquill (talk) 17:24, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I think the scope of Categories by country should be expanded to include regions that participate as countries in international events. This would include Ireland, NI and ROI categories under the same "by country" category in a non-hierarchical fashion. I think English Wikipedia categorises categories in such fashion. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 12:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sbb1413: As I elaborate a bit more on in the CfD on countries, I think this is a road to trouble. At a minimum, it sets up overcat violations and creates unnecessary first-glance confusion. If one wants an index including all sporting countries in international events, an index specific to this such as 'by country of association' or such would be fine, as the user has a better idea that they are seeing the 'countries' listed in the format of their sporting association, and that the index contents are based on their sporting association. This would distinguish it from the normal 'by country' index which would be presumed to use the same scope as Category:Countries, i.e. be a list of sovereign states. Josh (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I'm sorry but Category:Association football people in Ireland seems to be a bit of a red herring, as we don't have any "association football people in country" categories, except a single one for Lithuania. There is no existing real structure for that topic on Commons. But take a more established topic, such as Technology, as a better example. We have Technology in Ireland, under which is Technology in the Republic of Ireland. Technology in Ireland is under the parent structure of Technology by region of location along with other regions such as Latin America, Korea, etc. I agree that "Ireland" categories should not necessarily need to be made as a parent to any existing "Republic of Ireland" categories, especially if the republic is going to be the only contents. I get your concern for parent category structure, but it isn't really an Ireland problem, it's a global problem. The correct structure doesn't always exist, or exist consistently, within any given topic, but again, it is nothing specific to the Ireland question so I'm not sure why it is germane to the question of this CfD. Josh (talk) 16:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's a red-herring at all, because we do have Category:Association football people from X. Where do we put Category:Association football people from Ireland, should it be created? We don't do this for other countries on islands. We don't do it at all for Category:Hispaniola. And for former countries like Category:Korea we don't continue using the former country to locate contemporary people/things. We wouldn't have Category:Korea as the main category for South Korea with a sub-category of Category:North Korea]. Why would we do the same for Ireland? -- Themightyquill (talk) 11:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I guess that we are entering in a minefield.
And, I reckon, categories lack a bit of semantics (or better, they have it but we alas, we - me first - didn't spend time to explain it to the reader).
Categories should reflect the context.
Though Ireland as a island is not technically a country, a category like "Rugby union in Ireland" has sense because Ireland (the island) is rugby union country. Thus it can be effectively included in "rugby union by country" because the semantics of that category is "by rugby union country" (it includes, for example, also England, Scotland and Wales which are not sovereign countries but separate rugby union countries with their own federation each). Of course what I say makes sense if one knows the context (c'est à dire, all-Ireland is a sports country for many sports but not for association football), and this is up to us to explain (that is, warning the reader that "country" in that context must not be intended as administrative or politic entity but a sports country). Hope that what I wrote made sense. -- Blackcat 16:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS If you note the navbox atop of the subcats of the European rugby union country, such as Rugby union in Scotland, it navigates through the member unions of Rugby Europe, not across the countries of Europe, just because the latter wouldn't include England, Scotland, Wales and would consider Ireland only as the Republic. -- Blackcat 16:41, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think "by country of association" makes more sense, as countries of association aren't necessarily sovereign states. While the scope of "by country" categories should be limited to sovereign states in order to adhere with Commons policy, the scope of "by country of association" may include subdivisions or regions participating as countries. Although the term "country" in "rugby union by country" unambiguously refers to the entities participating in rugby union as countries, we should use "rugby union by country of association" instead for this purpose. However, Rugby union by country may still be used to group sovereign states corresponding to the participating entities. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 17:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sbb1413: or maybe we might create a parallel category tree "by sports country" or "by country for sport", yet being aware that, to reprise the abovementioned examples, Scotland, Wales and England are rugby union and rugby league countries, Republic of Ireland is a football and Olympics country, the whole Great Britain is a country at Olympic level, is a country in tennis in Fed Cup and Davis Cup, Northern Ireland is a football country, and so on. -- Blackcat 22:31, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
England, Scotland, Wales, Great Britain, Ireland all can be categorised under "by country of association" or "by sports country", which should be distinct from "by country". However, the UK should never be categorised under "by sports country" as it has never participated in any sports as the full United Kingdom. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 02:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly disagree with the desire to create a problem where there is none. Ireland is a country that calls itself just Ireland, not Republic of Ireland. That's the way Brits call it to diminish it, with select exceptions where RoI is indeed used, such as FIFA (I can think of no other actually). On the other hand, there is in general no need to create categories for topics at the level of an island when that island is shared between two countries, as for Hispaniola, Saint-Martin (the Dutch + French part), New Guinea, Borneo, Tierra Del Fuego, Timor etc. As mentioned above, there are in general no category for topic in Great Britain for the UK minus Northern Ireland (and if there was, should it include content in the Orkney, Hebrides, the Isle of Wight, the Shetlands etc.?) In a similar but not identical case, we don't have parallel Cyprus and Republic of Cyprus category trees. Therefore, categories for Foo of/in Ireland should almost always be about the country, not the island, with select exceptions when that is absolutely necessary, such as rugby union and everything pre-partition. Place Clichy 11:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So if someone is researching the Category:Broighter Gold, he should look in Pre-History of the United Kingdom, not Pre-History of Ireland? Even though the hoard is stored in Category:Goldware in the National Museum of Ireland, Kildare Street. Because County Londonderry is not in the Republic. Is that right?p

Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your arguments may be right, but the name "Republic of Ireland" is not something the Brits use to diminish the country. It is an official descriptor for the country, adopted by the Republic itself. In addition, the Wikipedia article for the country is titled the "Republic of Ireland" because Ireland also refers to the island shared by the Republic and the Kingdom. My current stand is not to create every single category for the island of Ireland as long as we don't have its corresponding category for Northern Ireland. The new categories for the Republic may be titled "Ireland" instead of the "Republic of Ireland" but would be converted into a region category if the corresponding category for Northern Ireland is created. For example, we have created Category:Foo in Ireland with parents Category:Bar in the Republic of Ireland and Category:Foo by country. If someone creates Category:Foo in Northern Ireland, we will create Category:Foo in the Republic of Ireland with parents Category:Bar in the Republic of Ireland, Category:Foo by country and Category:Foo in Ireland. Then we will recategorise Category:Foo in Ireland under Category:Bar in Ireland and Category:Foo by region. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 12:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, if Category:Foo in Northern Ireland becomes empty and if Category:Foo in the Republic of Ireland still has images, then we may redirect Category:Foo in Ireland to Category:Foo in the Republic of Ireland. That is, the region categories should exist as long as we have images of at least two highest-order constituents of the given region. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 12:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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