Talk:Dragon

This  level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.Mythology Top‑importance

	This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Religion Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Children's literature Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Children's literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Children's literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Tasks you can do: edit history watch purge Here are some open tasks for WikiProject Children's literature, an attempt to create and standardize articles related to children's literature. Feel free to help with any of the following tasks. Add {{Portal|Children's literature}} to the See also section of related articles. Tag the talk pages of related articles with {{WikiProject Children's literature}} Join WikiProject Children's literature and list yourself as a Participant in the project. Cleanup: A cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category, the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects. Deletion discussions: listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature Notability: Articles with notability concerns, listed at WikiProject Notability Rate the Unassessed articles in the Children's literature WikiProject. References: Add references to Unreferenced BLPs. Requested articles: Create a requested article on literature Stubs: Improve a stub-class article

Middle Ages Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Christianity Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

China Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Classical Greece and Rome Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Norse history and culture Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Norse history and culture, a WikiProject related to all activities of the North Germanic peoples, both in Scandinavia and abroad, prior to the formation of the Kalmar Union in 1397. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ancient Near East Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ancient Near East related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Bible Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Folklore Mid‑importance

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Folklore, a WikiProject dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of the topics of folklore and folklore studies. If you would like to participate, you may edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project's page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to discussion.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Judaism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Greece Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Japan: Mythology / Shinto Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project, participate in relevant discussions, and see lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 00:53, August 3, 2024 (JST, Reiwa 6) ()
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Mythology task force.
	This article is supported by the Shinto task force.
WikiProject Japan to do list: edit history watch purge Peer review: None A-class review: None Featured content candidates –  Articles: None Pictures: None Lists: None Good article nominations: Vinland Saga (TV series), Godzilla Minus One Add requested images to articles that need them. Pages for Deletion: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions. Improve and expand Japan-related stubs. Create some requested articles. Help translate an article from the Japanese Wikipedia into English. Assess unassessed articles

Vietnam Low‑importance

	This article is part of WikiProject Vietnam, an attempt to create a comprehensive, neutral, and accurate representation of Vietnam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Korea Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Heraldry and vexillology

Dragon is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

"Multi-headed dragon" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Multi-headed dragon has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 3 § Multi-headed dragon until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Etymology

If "The word dragon entered the English language in the early 13th century from Old French dragon", how do we explain the etymology of dracan which the accompanying image says appears in Beowulf at least a couple of centuries earlier? 89.243.148.15 (talk) 12:47, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Dragons are not just magical creatures

In your wikipedia article, dragons are depicted as being magical or mythological creatures. However they can be real creatures as aliens on other worlds. So a change needs to be made here. For reference see my game "The Other Worlds Tale" at simmer.io/@skgupt which has a youtube video. Dragons as aliens have been in scifi but it hasn't been very popular because it didn't crystallize that that could be real (they were just combining dragons with scifi). Skgupt (talk) 12:48, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

A lot of things could be true. What goes in the Wikipedia article is what we have evidence for in reliable secondary sources, which is dragons in folklore, religion, mythology, and pop culture. There is already a major pop culture text mentioned that portrays dragons as beings from other planets (Dragonriders of Pern), but that's in the appropriate section rather than speculating on anything that could be real. That would be outside of Wikipedia's mission and against its guidelines.--MattMauler (talk) 12:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

An article on dragons should still indicate what is possible. Skgupt (talk) 12:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I think this should be changed because there is confusion, if you look up "are dragons real" or "can dragons exist" in a search engine the answer will be no, so this would be a very good change. Skgupt (talk) 13:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Dragonriders of Pern was first published in 1967. Even today no one believes dragons can exist as aliens on other worlds, so this is important. Skgupt (talk) 20:02, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you should read WP:RGW. It explains many useful things about Wikipedia. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 22:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no need for verifiable sources, it's obvious it's just a concept that makes sense, I've already mentioned the game at simmer.io/@skgupt that illustrates the concept. Skgupt (talk) 22:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Us disputing the addition means it needs a reliable source. That's the general rule, because two sides of an argument can consider a different thing obvious. Your game is WP:SPS, so it is not reliable. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 06:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

You're not making any sense, a reliable source for what? I'm going to have to move this to the dispute noticeboard Skgupt (talk) 13:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

A reliable source for "they could possibly exist for real as aliens on other possibly existent habitable planets". Otherwise it doesn't belong on Wikipedia, as it is something you came up with yourself. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 16:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

So if it is something I came up with myself it is original, and if its original than the source would be something made my me. Skgupt (talk) 11:39, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and if it is a claim that you can get published in mainstream secondary sources first, then it could potentially go in the article. That's basically it; we need a reliable source. Our policy prohibits self-published sources in most cases.--MattMauler (talk) 11:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

"Dragons could be aliens" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence, given that there's no conclusive evidence of any type of extraterrestrial life, let alone anything so complex that would fit this article's description. However, even if such a thing were to exist, it would be given its own article like Dragon (extraterrestrial) as it would be an entirely separate subject from this article's subject, which is about the terrestrial creature of folklore. There is no dispute amongst reliable sources that this article's subject is a mythological creature. - Aoidh (talk) 02:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Can I make an article like this then? Dragon (extrasolar) Skgupt (talk) 02:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Only if such a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, which does not appear to be the case by any means. If reliable sources have discussed such a topic enough that it is notable then an article may be warranted, but per the discussion above that does not seem to be the case. You said above that there is no need for verifiable sources but notability requires verifiability as does content within articles per WP:V. - Aoidh (talk) 03:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Possible dubiousness of the word "dragon" in descriptions of sea serpent in Canaanite and biblical Hebrew translations

In the Levant section, the Ugaritic Baal Cycle which contains a description of a mythical sea serpent, the possible incorrect word "dragon" is used in describing the

sea-dragon Lōtanu

— Quoted from this version

when no supporting quotes from a corpus of text is given to justify using the word "dragon" as reliable description. The word "dragon" in English carries many connotations and it doesn't seem to be appropriate to use it as it's used in the aforementioned section when describing a sea serpent.

Furthermore, the rest of the section abruptly jumps into the supposed description of the western concept of the word "dragon" in the Hebrew bible when it and the Baal Cycle descriptions should have their own sub-sections.

Partially corrected by adding a paragraph break Jdbtwo (talk) 15:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

As for the word "dragon" in the biblical Hebrew translations, it seems to be a mistranslation from the obsolete King James translation. For example, in

In the Book of Psalms, Psalm 74, Psalm 74:13–14, the sea-dragon Leviathan, is slain by Yahweh

— Quoted from this version

and in

He will slay the dragon that is in the sea

— Quoted from this version

the word dragon comes from the King James translation for the biblical Hebrew word Tannin which is a mythical "sea monster" or "sea serpent" and which the section conflates with the word "Leviathan", which is another mythical sea serpent. It is clearly evident from the the description of "Tannin" that another sea monster is being described :

translated in the King James Version as "the dragon"

— Quoted from this version

The only citation in the section that lends credence to the word "dragon" as being a correct translation of the Hebrew source text is

Job 41:19–21 states that the Leviathan exhales fire and smoke

— Quoted from this version

but this only applies to "Leviathan." Also, the statement :

Job 41:19–21 states that the Leviathan exhales fire and smoke, making its identification as a mythical dragon clearly apparent

— Quoted from this version

seems a bit dubious to me : There are many types of "monsters" that exhale fire and smoke -- just because a "sea serpent" does, in my opinion, doesn't make it a representation of the western concept of a "dragon."

It seems that the problem comes from the improper use of the word "dragon" as it relates to the Ugaritic Baal Cycle and also the King James mistranslation of "Tannin" as "dragon" and in addition the conflation of the words "Tannin" and "Leviathan."

In my opinion, the whole Levant section seems to be describing "sea serpents" or "sea monsters." Jdbtwo (talk) 15:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The lead

The last sentence of the lead states that "large extinct or migrating crocodiles bear the closest resemblance" to dragons, and then cites two sources. While I agree with the assertion, the problems I see with this are: 1. Neither source actually includes this info. 2. The info is not mentioned or sourced in the main body of the article, and 3. Sources in the lead are generally frowned upon, as it is assumed the info will be expanded upon and sourced in the larger body of the article, which it is not.

I'm not going to be bold here because I've been very much absent from WP editing four a few years, and much could've changed policy-wise since then, so I request that a more experienced editor take a look. Ditch ∝ 20:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for catching this. I've removed the claim and added more specific reasons in my edit summary.--MattMauler (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)