Timtrent

Click here to leave a new message, LINK to any article you want me to look at And sign your posts using ~~~~. I may not bother with posts where articles are not linked and posts are not signed. I may just delete them and ignore them and you. I do not review drafts on request, nor, normally, do I review a draft more than once, so please do not ask If you want me to do something for you, make it easy for me, please.

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Draft:John_M._Dorsey,_Jr.

Thanks for the assessment. I was looking for an neutral opinion, and you told me what I'd feared but hoped against. It was worth a shot! I've already offered up pretty much every source that is available on line, and will not be revising the article further. Who and how should the draft be removed? Thanks again for taking the time. AwryGuy (talk) 13:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@AwryGuy Sleep on it for a couple of days. Then, if you are certain it cannot be proven to be notable, apply {{Db-u1}} on a line of its own, at the head. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 14:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Presumably there is nothing to prevent me from re-submitting the thing in the unlikely event that further suitable sourcing emerges. AwryGuy (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@AwryGuy No obstacle at all. I hope sources emerge. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:14, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

re: Draft:Easterhouse Festival Society

Hi there, sorry to bother you. I’m just new here, so I’m trying to figure out how this stuff works.

I notice that you just rejected Draft:Easterhouse Festival Society, and wanted to touch base to ask why / what to do about it. I didn’t create the draft, but had edited it and found sources for it during the last submission period, and would like to get it fit for acceptance if possible, because it seems like an interesting page.

You said in your rejection that it didn’t have enough sources that were in-depth, reliable, secondary, and strictly independent. As far as I can tell though, while the introduction about why the society was needed doesn’t directly address the society, in the section that does we have two TV programs from Scotland TV and the BBC directly talking about the society at the time, a Glasgow times article from this year (2024) talking about the most famous artwork the society produced, and a book published in 2020 which is about one of the major participants of the society, and the play that won a fringe first award at the Edinburgh fringe.

These all seem to fulfil the in-depth, reliable, secondary, and strictly independent criteria?

You also note that there is too much information, and too many citations, so I can only assume that the extra stuff somehow dilutes the relevance of the other directly relevant citations/sources? I was under the impression that once the basics were established, extra sources didn’t subtract relevance from those basic sources, but maybe I’m wrong? Like I said, I’m new so I’m still trying to figure this stuff out.

Given that you want less information / fewer sources for acceptance, which parts would you like to see cut? I’m guessing the earlier “reasons the society was created” sections?

Thanks for your help Absurdum4242 (talk) 08:40, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Absurdum4242 I'm not seeing the references and the text in the same manner that you are. I suppose that is obvious.

The TV shows are interesting. But one presented by the society seems to be what they wish to say, so doesn't verify notability.

There is a difficulty with pre society history, one you will not think obvious, and which is subtle. Imagine a reference saying "There is a need for Foo!" and another a while later, saying "We have Foo!" What those have not established is a link between need and arrival of Foo. We call any cause relationship stated or implied as WP:SYNTH. You need to be careful not to link the gangs and their disappearance with the arrival of the society unless a reference links them directly.

References not mentioning the society are hard to justify as useful. Check these with care, please.

Consider that the artwork may be notable independent of any notability of the society. It os a paradox that a work may be notable and the creator of the work may not be.

Do you see where I am going with this? Please come back with further questions. I'm sorry you had to wait so long for a reply, In have been busy all day. I probably have left unanswered questions simply because I am too tired to think too deeply 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi there, thanks very much for taking the time to reply.

Don’t worry about replying quickly, I saw in your profile that you’re busy IRL, and was expecting a reply to take days not hours 😆

I guess what is confusing me a little is what I’ve been reading over on the notability page - ie the parts quoted below

- “Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists

The criteria applied to the creation or retention of an article are not the same as those applied to the content inside it. The notability guideline does not apply to the contents of articles.”

- “Article content does not determine notability

Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article. If the subject has not been covered outside of Wikipedia, no amount of improvement to the Wikipedia content will suddenly make the subject notable. Conversely, if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability.”

- “Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article

The absence of sources or citations in a Wikipedia article (as distinct from the non-existence of independent, published reliable sources in libraries, bookstores, and the internet) does not indicate that a subject is not notable. Notability requires only that suitable independent, reliable sources exist in the real world; it does not require their immediate presence or citation in an article. Editors evaluating notability should consider not only any sources currently named in an article, but also the possibility or existence of notability-indicating sources that are not currently named in the article.”

These policies seem to suggest that so long as the subject of the article (The society in this case), has been covered in external sources which are *significant, *reliable, *independant, *secondary sources - and that such sources exist whether or not currently included in the page as written. That some of the linkages in the page as currently written are weakish (although I disagree about exactly how weak, given there’s a source given which says the dude who created the society did so specifically because he was concerned about the previous level of gang violence) seems not to matter so long as they exist - given the policy that says poor writing and referencing doesn’t decrease the subject’s notability”? Nor do they need to be in the article as written at all, at least not at first, given that the policy “does not require their immediate presence or citation in the article” as long as there is a “possibility or existence of notability-indicated sources that are not currently in the article”?

I’m not at all having a go at you for denying the article, or suggesting that you should have done otherwise… I’m just confused since I’m new here whether the actual culture of long term editors has decided to interpret these policies differently than they are written (or at least how I am reading them as written)?

Sorry for taking you time with this long reply - you seem to be really good at articulating this stuff, so I thought I’d ask, and hopefully it will help me do better in future.

Thanks, Michael. Absurdum4242 (talk) 13:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Absurdum4242 I think there is often a difference between theory (policy) and practice (what editors do with a mainspace article). The role of Reviewer is to seek to protect creating editors such as yourself from the vagaries of editors who happen upon articles and sometimes offer them for deletion with poor rationales (causing the creating editor stress and grief) and even sometimes succeeding in the deletion.

That was a whole paragraph to say that Wikipedia is weird!

The role of a reviewer is to accept any draft whcih each of us, individually, believes has a greater than 50% probability of surviving an immediate deletion process. To define "immediate" I choose it to mean "with no other edits since it entered mainspace" so obviously I didn't feel yours was quite there. Equally obviously I am relatively human and can make mistakes! I think you think I have here. That's ok by me. I have no need to defend my corner.

That means that, if you feel I ought to have accepted it, and say to me "Please revisit your review, I think you are mistaken" I will be happy to do just that, and accept the draft. You have no need to resubmit it, you only have to ask me.

Now, if I cut to the chase of what you are saying, it is the difference between "Inherent Notability" and "Demonstrated and Verified Notability" - that is what you are saying, isn't it?

Subjects, topics, with inherent notability should be accepted, perhaps even if the draft is exceeding poor, something yours is not, exceeding poor. The question is, what will happen at [[WP:AFD]? That is something I cannot predict. Deletion discussions are meant to be policy based. Usually they are. Often they are not.

What you need to think hard about is "Does my topic have inherent notability?"

If it does not, but needs the notability to be verified, the next question to ask of the draft is "Setting aside my wish for it to be published as it is now, looking at the draft with, ideally, a jaundiced eye, does it have sufficient references which pass the criteria below to survive:

We require references from significant coverage about the topic of the article, and independent of it, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS please. See WP:42. Please also see WP:PRIMARY which details the limited permitted usage of primary sources and WP:SELFPUB which has clear limitations on self published sources. Providing sufficient references, ideally one per fact referred to, that meet these tough criteria is likely to allow this article to remain. Lack of them or an inability to find them is likely to mean that the topic is not suitable for inclusion, certainly today.

This is where I see it as just below the threshold. Does your new jaundiced eye see it as above? If you are on the fence about it (jaundiced eyes do that), don;t ask me simply to accept it. Instead, ask me to ask another reviewer whose opinions I trust, to take a look with a view to acceptance.

I'm pretty sure I haven't given you direct answers to your questions, but have I answered sufficiently so you understand my thought processes? And remember, I make mistakes. We all do. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 14:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Tim,

that all makes sense, and definitely gives me something to think about. I think what I’m going to do now is maybe give the actual creator of the draft a chance to improve it, and possibly talk to him in a week or two if he hasn’t, see if we can get on the same page. I just stumbled across the page and thought it was interesting, which is why I tried to help out. I won’t ask you to review it, or check with anyone until after a bit of time has passed and I’ve touched base with the creator or had another go myself at digging up sources. I agree that the pre-society introduction is long, and… perhaps too reliant on quotes? But I don’t want to just cut it all either, because it isn’t MY draft.

Really I was mostly just trying to get the policy vs culture here clear in my mind, because 1/ it seems from observation that it differs, and 2/ I very much suspect that I prioritise usefulness / interest more, and… internalised policies around denying / deleting for lack of direct relevance than a lot of the editors on here. I’d rather have a weak (but factually true) article on here if it’s useful / interesting, and then work to improve it, rather than deny / delete it, which seems to be some editors main interest (I’ve come across several, even just in two weeks, who only delete / deny, and do not edit / create - which I’m not suggesting describes you, or is even wrong, it’s just not my mindset). It… seems to have been wikipedias’s original motivating force too, and I wonder if time / cultural drift has affected it without people necessarily noticing.

Anyway, not suggesting you made a mistake, and don’t have my more asks at this stage. Really happy you’ve taken the time to explain this so clearly to a noobie, and that you have a great weekend.

michael. Absurdum4242 (talk) 15:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Absurdum4242 The thing about all reviewers is that we have asked to perform the role because we want to accept articles.

At the same time we also want to keep the true trash out.

A new reviewer is less likely to accept a borderline draft than an experienced one. The new reviewer still think is it is a but abut them and their reputation. An experienced one knows that it is all about the article. I aim to accept any borderline draft I come across, for example, because I am confident in my thinking. And I still make mistakes. I am only as good as my most recent review!

The weekend will see may at my local sailing club. I support my local RYA Sailability group in making sure those folk who need extra support to sail get the best fun they can possibly have.

I hope your weekend is excellent tooo 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 15:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Your essay

I know your thoughts on PAs, but this vandalism was glaring and offensive. Someone who doesn't know you might be concerned about your thoughts. I haven't rev del'ed so feel free to revert me if you disagree. Star Mississippi 19:28, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Star Mississippi. I think this might be revel'd with benefit. Obviously mine is a perfect scale model! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:31, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi The IP seems generally to be offensive, probably a child. I'll leave what you do about then to you entirely. I don't mind all sorts of personally directed ordure on my talk page, but not in things I've bothered about creating. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I just took out their trash. Sorry for the extra edit to your essay, couldn't figure out how to rev del without it at first. Star Mississippi 19:40, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi I'm sure you wiped your feet om the mat, though. Bin collection happens soon! Unless they are on strike of course. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:MAAsterG

Hi @Timtrent Thanks for your inputs on the draft page, MAAsterG. Quite enlightening. I have removed references to Youtube link citations as I was unable to ascertain if a video is in fact protected by copyright or not. I have also made changes as per the Manual of Style. Please review this and let me know if any further inputs or if this is good to go. Thanks again ARGHJ (talk) 08:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@ARGHJ I am afraid you will need to trust your own instincts. I am travelling for the next couple of weeks 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:41, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Cercle_d%27%C3%89tudes_Scientifiques_Pierre_Rayer

I have just made changes to the article in question and I would like to have your feedback on it if it is good or not; also regarding the two accounts underlined above it was an error on my part and I have already explained myself on that, Waiting for your return, thank you Inspiringflow (talk) 13:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)