Talk:Alfonso VII of León and Castile

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Name

Sorry, but Alfonso VII "of Castile" is incorrect, If you read the Chronica Adefonsi Imperatoris (there is an English version in Internet), you can see there he is called "King of Leon" about 40 times, and 0 times "King of Castile". Castile was a secundary kingdom for him: in his documents, Castile appears in the last positions in his kingdoms´list. He was King of Leon, and Emperor of Hispania (Spain). There are many confussions in the English Wikipedia about the kingdoms and dinasties in Spain, but it´s a problem in Spain also.

The question, however, is not one of contemporary usage, but of historiographical usage. He was the king of Castile, even if León was more important. It really doesn't matter what the title said, as long as the article explains it. This article cleary needs some expansion and sourcing.

Also: you should have fixed the redirects, though. Don't worry, I've fixed them now. Srnec 22:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

In the article on Muxia, I make the following reference: Alfonso Raimúndez (King Afonso V of Galicia and the future King Alfonso VII of León and eventually of Castile, and of Spain) Does that look reasonably accurate? Should I spell Afonso as Alfonso? --Filll 13:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

See the rationale, and related moves, at Talk:Ferdinand I of León#Requested move. Srnec (talk) 05:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

 Done –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Alfonso VII of León, not Castille

Contrary to what many people think and say, Urraca, Alfonso VI and Alfonso VII never consider themselves kings of Castille. There are no historical records of that afirmation. The first king of Castille was Sancho I, brother of Alfonso VI. When he died Alfonso never considered Castille an independent kingdom. The next king of Castille was Sancho II, son of Alfonso VII who separate Leon and Castille as two different kingdoms. This wrong information should be revised and corrected. 154.28.188.237 (talk) 14:47, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 2 March 2024

• Alfonso VII of León and Castile → Alfonso VII
• Alfonso VIII of Castile → Alfonso VIII
• Alfonso IX of León → Alfonso IX
• Alfonso X of Castile → Alfonso X
• Alfonso XI of Castile → Alfonso XI

– These are the only monarchs with the name "Alfonso" and that number. Per WP:SOVEREIGN, these titles should be moved. "Only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed. In the case of kings, queens regnant, emperors, and empresses regnant whose common name is ambiguous and not the primary meaning, article titles are normally in the form "Monarch's first name and ordinal of Country". Examples: Philip IV of Spain; Henry I of France; Joan II of Navarre." UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. These are not recognizable. There are multiple Alfonsos in multiple Iberian kingdoms. Readers should not be expected to know or memorize the ordinals for all kingdoms and know from which they are. This is detrimental to Wikipedia readers. Walrasiad (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - Best to make as easy as possible, for readers to know which country is being reigned over. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current titles are much more helpful to readers and editors. Titles have a job to do. We are not required to look for the shortest possible title any more than we are required to arbitrarily extend titles. Srnec (talk) 16:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support: all of these are already primary redirects and do not need disambiguation, per WP:SOVEREIGN. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The ordinals in both the Kingdom of Castile and unified Spain are following the Castilian line of succession. Removing it is confusing. Dimadick (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  Comment - No they are not. Alfonso IX of León is counted as "Alfonso IX" in both the Castillian and Spanish ordinals. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• Very strong oppose as per the reasons given above. Convention states that "of [country]" should be in the title. These articles should be no different and this trend of removing this off articles' titles is making Wikipedia inconsistent, in my opinion. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 12:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Comment - Actually, convention does not state that. Back in November, there was a strong consensus to change the guideline to only require that "of [country]" be in the title when disambiguation is needed. Read what WP:SOVEREIGN actually says. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)