Talk:Soviet–Afghan War

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Soviet–Afghan War article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

• Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
• New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

• Assume good faith
• Be polite and avoid personal attacks
• Be welcoming to newcomers
• Seek dispute resolution if needed

Article policies

• Neutral point of view
• No original research
• Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWLArchives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 100 days 

This  level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:Military history: Asian / Russian & Soviet / South Asia / Cold War

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
	This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces: /  Asian military history task force Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force South Asian military history task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989)

Soviet Union: Russia / History Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Russia (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.

Cold War High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cold War, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Cold War on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Afghanistan Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Socialism Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Central Asia Mid‑importance

	Soviet–Afghan War is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Tibet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang and Central Asian portions of Iran, Pakistan and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Pakistan Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Section sizes

Section size for Soviet–Afghan War (78 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 21,425 21,425 Naming 1,179 1,179 Background 88 43,786 Russian interest in Central Asia 3,690 6,622 Soviet–Afghan relations post-1920s 2,932 2,932 Afghanistan-Pakistan border 3,545 3,545 1960s–1970s: Proxy war 2,669 2,669 1973 coup d'état 6,443 6,443 Saur Revolution of 1978 4,427 15,782 "Red Terror" of the revolutionary government 5,321 5,321 Affairs with the USSR after the revolution 6,034 6,034 Initiation of the rebellion 4,841 8,637 Pakistan–U.S. relations and rebel aid 3,796 3,796 Soviet deployment, 1979 15,615 15,615 Soviet invasion and palace coup 8,699 27,573 International positions on Soviet invasion 7,093 7,093 Military aid 2,094 2,094 State of the Cold War 3,606 3,606 December 1979 – February 1980: Occupation and national unrest 6,081 6,081 Soviet occupation, 1980–1985 38 31,038 Soviet military operations against Afghan guerrillas 10,095 10,095 Reforms of the Karmal administration 1,354 1,354 Mujahideen insurrection 12,652 19,551 Raids inside Soviet territory 2,115 2,115 Media reaction 4,784 4,784 Soviet exit and change of Afghan leadership, 1985–1989 63 22,290 Foreign diplomatic efforts 1,476 1,476 April 1985 – January 1987: Exit strategy 2,951 2,951 May 1986–1988: Najibullah and his reforms 3,838 5,223 Negotiations for a coalition 1,385 1,385 April 1988: The Geneva Accords 1,351 1,351 January 1987 – February 1989: Withdrawal 7,880 11,226 Causes of withdrawal 3,346 3,346 Fall of Najibullah government, 1992 979 979 Aerial engagements 101 6,728 Aerial losses in Pakistan airspace 1,136 1,136 Stinger missiles and the "Stinger effect" 5,491 5,491 War crimes 4,561 13,605 Massacres 1,134 1,134 Rape 3,715 3,715 Scorched-earth tactics and Wanton destruction 1,830 1,830 Use of chemical weapons 454 454 Torture 1,038 1,038 Looting 873 873 Foreign involvement 6,566 6,566 Spillover 14 5,548 Raids inside Soviet union 1,681 1,681 Aerial engagements with Pakistan 1,286 1,286 Terror campaign in Pakistan 862 862 Miram Shah incident 455 455 Badaber uprising 546 546 Raid inside Iran 704 704 Impact 205 25,233 Soviet personnel strengths and casualties 4,282 4,282 Casualties and destruction in Afghanistan 14,327 14,327 Refugees 4,418 4,418 Effect on Afghan society 2,001 2,001 Aftermath 17 27,800 Fall of the Soviet Union 5,452 5,452 Civil war 7,826 7,826 Rise of Jihadist movements 8,126 12,257 Spread of Islamic militancy in Pakistan 4,131 4,131 Notion of "blowback" against the U.S. 2,248 2,248 Media and popular culture 181 181 Perception in Afghanistan 2,036 3,500 Role of the United States 1,464 1,464 Perception in the former Soviet Union 987 9,024 Russian Federation 2,946 2,946 Ukraine 709 709 Uzbekistan 782 782 Belarus 1,209 1,209 Moldova 2,391 2,391 Notes 34 34 References 1,486 1,486 Bibliography 8,478 9,725 Historiography and memory 1,247 1,247 Further reading 788 788 External links 1,310 1,310 Total 275,413 275,413

Why is the US not at all included in terms of the sides in the conflict?

The Mujahideen were funded in what was the most expensive operation in CIA history and was basically what led the Soviets to invade and yet thrle US and CIA isnt included in the sides in the conflict? 2600:1006:B147:CDA:E1A4:D260:546:71AB (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you should ask User:Cinderella157? Eastfarthingan (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

The article certainly mentions the role of US and the CIA. However, I donot see that there are WP:RSs that would call the US a belligerent in the war? This would be the reason why the US is not listed as a belligerent in the infobox.

They were not a belligerent but were heavily involved (along with Pakistan and UK) in covert military support, there are separate articles about these too. I think a consensus needs to be reached rather than state a 'depracted' opinion. Eastfarthingan (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Deprecation of "supported by" is not opinion, it was arrived at through an RfC at the template talk page and is linked in the template documentation. The close does allow for an affirmative consensus (ie an RfC) that would allow and exception to the deprecation. If that is what you think should happen .... Cinderella157 (talk) 14:10, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry what I meant was Military support - it gives a better understanding, and isn't as vague Supported by. I can see why the former has been depracted given the many articles that have it and conatin large lists of countries/combatants etc. So yes I think for Military support a consensus should be made . Eastfarthingan (talk) 15:30, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

In terms of the spirit and intent of the RfC that deprecated the use (here is the link), I don't see a distinction between "supported by" and "military support". I am not standing in your way as far as opening an RfC goes but I would suggest that the RfC should be explicit as to which countries are added and why (and why no other countries would be added). Before we go down this path, please consider this version of the article. You might also consider this RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Units involved section

Can someone add the Afghan Armed Forces in the units involved section (preferably above paramilitaries)? It was not just Afghan paramilitaries that fought the war, but the Afghan Armed Forces as well. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 20:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Maoist mujahideen fighters

Can we please add Maoist fighters back to the infobox of the page, since Wikipedia is supposed to cover all details of a war? It was removed for very shaky reasons, the idea being that Maoists didn't play any actual role and the one major Maoist leader (Majid Kalakani) died in 1980. But that's not true. There were multiple Maoist factions, specifically ALO, SAMA and AMFF, and several major Maoist leaders such as Faiz Ahmad and Mulavi Dawood. They were killed in 1986, but were still leaders in the war up to that point, and the Maoists were an active (though considerably less so compared to the Islamists) presence in the war.

I don't necessarily believe they need to be a separate entry from the Afghan Mujahideen section, as that's an all-encompassing title, but they can be included as part of them. How about something like this?

Soviet–Afghan War
Part of the Cold War and the Afghan conflict
Above: Mujahideen fighters in Kunar Province, 1987 Below: Soviet airmen with a local Afghan man in Logar Province, 1987
Date 24 December 1979 – 15 February 1989 (9 years, 1 month, 3 weeks and 1 day) Location Afghanistan Result Afghan Mujahideen victory
Belligerents
Soviet Union Afghanistan	Afghan Mujahideen Afghan Interim Government (from 1988)
Commanders and leaders
Soviet Union: Leonid Brezhnev # Yuri Andropov # Konstantin Chernenko # Mikhail Gorbachev Dmitry Ustinov Andrei Gromyko Sergey Sokolov Dmitry Yazov Valentin Varennikov Igor Rodionov Boris Gromov Yuri Drozdov Afghanistan: Babrak Karmal Mohammad Najibullah Abdul Rashid Dostum Abdul Qadir Shahnawaz Tanai Mohammed Rafie Ismatullah Muslim Mohammad Aslam Watanjar Mohammad Sardar Bajauri Abdul Jabar Qahraman Dawlat Waziri	Sunni Mujahideen: Burhanuddin Rabbani Ahmad Shah Massoud Naqib Alikozai Ismail Khan Gulbuddin Hekmatyar Fazal Haq Mujahid Abdullah Azzam Wa'el Hamza Julaidan Osama bin Laden Ayman al-Zawahiri Mulavi Younas Khalis Jalaluddin Haqqani Mohammed Omar Abdul Haq Haji Abdul Qadeer Abdul Rasul Sayyaf Mohammad Nabi Sibghatullah Mojaddedi Ahmed Gailani Abdul Rahim Wardak Shia Mujahideen: Muhammad Asif Muhsini Abdul Ali Mazari Assef Kandahari Sayyid Ali Beheshti Abuzar Ghaznavi Mosbah Sade Maoists: Faiz Ahmad Mulavi Dawood
Units involved
Soviet Armed Forces KGB Afghan Armed Forces Paramilitaries: Sarandoy Defense of the Revolution Fidayan-i Islam KhAD Pader Watan	Sunni Mujahideen Factions: Jamiat-e Islami Shura-e Nazar Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin Maktab al-Khidamat Hezb-i Islami Khalis Ittehad-e Islami Harakat-i Inqilab-i Islami Jebh-e Nejat-e Melli Mahaz-e Milli Haqqani Network Ahmadzai (Ghilji clan) Tribes Shia Mujahideen Factions: Sazman-i Nasr Hezbollah Afghanistan Harakat i-Islami Shura Council Corps of Islamic Revolution Guardians of Afghanistan Islamic Revolution Movement (IRM) Union of Islamic Fighters (UIF) Raʽad Party Maoists Factions: Afghanistan Liberation Organization (ALO) Liberation Organization of the People of Afghanistan (SAMA) Afghanistan Mujahedin Freedom Fighters Front (AMFF)
Strength
Soviet Union: 620,000 total personnel 115,000 (1986 estimate) 120,000 (1987 estimate) Afghanistan: 250,000 total personnel (1989, including Sarandoy and Khad)	Mujahideen: 200,000–250,000 fighters
Casualties and losses
Total: 86,470–98,017 Soviet Union: 14,453–26,000 killed 9,500 killed in combat 4,000 died from wounds 1,000 died from disease and accidents 53,753 wounded 264 missing 451 aircraft lost (including 333 helicopters) 147 tanks lost 1,314 IFVs/APCs lost 433 artillery guns and mortars lost 11,369 cargo and fuel tanker trucks lost Afghanistan: 13,310 Killed (May 1988) 35 478 wounded 311 missing	Total: 162,579–192,579+ Mujahideen: 150,000–180,000 casualties (tentative estimate) 75,000–90,000 killed Pakistan: 5,775 killed 6,804 wounded 1 F-16 fighter aircraft lost (lost to friendly fire, according to Pakistan) (shot down, according to Afghan authorities) Total killed: 80,775–95,775+
Civilian casualties (Afghan): 1,500,000–2,000,000 killed 3+ million wounded 5+ million externally displaced 2+ million internally displaced Combatant deaths: More than 562,995 killed Total deaths: Approximately 3 million killed

Nights At Nyte (talk) 07:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

This works amazingly. Thank you! AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The infobox is already way too bloated. Make a case at TP that these additions are supported by the article per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Furthermore, entries in the commanders parameter need to be reviewed to what is reflected by the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

References

That blue flag for the Sarandoy isn’t an Afghan flag…

I saw that flag at a parade at the time and decided to digitalise it… I don’t know what it means but it wasn’t used for Sarandoy. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 06:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Removed. Too much cruft here anyway. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions! AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 16:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Numbers make no sense

It starts out by saying that "3 million Afghans were killed" out of a population of 13.5M, which is ridiculous. What were they firebombing towns? Mass executing civilians? There are usually many times as many people wounded as killed, so what, half the population was wounded or killed at some point during the war? It wasn't even that bad in Serbia during WW1, and that's about as severe a case as I'm aware of. Then in the info box below that is says that 3 million is the number of casualties. Not killed. And that's the maximum estimate, which is not the most likely one. Casualties includes all the wounded, captured, missing, and killed, the last generally being by far the smallest portion. Maybe if someone took all the deaths that occured in Afghanistan during that ten year period and said "okay these were clearly caused by the war" and wrote that number down you might get something like that. Although I wonder who was keeping accurate counts of the various tribes and villages and what happened to all the people in them over a decade.

Then it says there was 200,000 mujahideen, with 150,000 casualties. 75% of them were killed or wounded? They won the war in spite of only having 50,000 fighters left? Does that include POWs, like most casualty counts? Is 200,000 the total number of fighters who served at some point during the war? Was that the average overall size of their force, which stayed constant the whole time in spite of fighters being killed or wounded, deserting, retiring from age or sickness? It didn't start out as 50K and end up at 200K? At the numbers on the other side measured by the same metric? Hard to have faith in anything an article tells you when you are already having serious doubts before you start to scroll down.

Idumea47b (talk) 00:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Short answer, is the information you query WP:VERIFIABLE? If not verifiable (to good quality RSs), it should be removed. If there is nuance to information, it should not be represented in the infobox in a Wiki voice as a "fact". Cinderella157 (talk) 09:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• 3E1I5S8B9RF7, you made unexplained changes to the casualty figures in the infobox here but not to the body of the article. "Key facts" in the infobox should be supported by the body of the article and the article remain complete without the infobox (WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE). If there are significant difference in figures given in good quality sources, this becomes a point of nuance that cannot be effectively captured in an infobox. This part of the infobox is particularly bloated and should be rationalised. My revert is not so much a matter of what is being changed but a matter of its execution. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Following some figures for civilian casualties from the literature.

Estimates of Afghan losses vary, but it is believed that anywhere from 800,000 to 1.2 million Afghans died as a result of the fighting.

The casualty figures we have are more or less inaccurate guesses, often put into circulation for propaganda reasons. But probably somewhere between 600,000 and 1.5 million Afghans were killed in the Soviet war.

For Afghan civilian casualties, Dr Antonio Giustozzi has suggested a low figure of 600,000; a widely accepted figure is 1–1.5 million; General Lyakhovski gives the highest figure of 2.5 million, but he gives no source.

A careful analysis of data collected in refugee camps relating to patterns of war-related mortality concluded that between 1978 and 1987, unnatural deaths in Afghanistan amounted to 876,825 (Khalidi, 1991: 107). On average, this represented over 240 deaths every day for 10 years straight, or over 60 Afghan deaths for each Soviet soldier who died as a result of the war.

Carpet bombings, razed villages, mass executions, torture, starvation, disease, and landmines caused horrific casualties and created masses of refugees. Astonishingly for a country with high birth rates, Afghanistan’s population actually declined during the war from 13.3 million 1979 to 11.5 million in 1987.

References

--Jo1971 (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The Soviets apparently used Napalm in the Laghman massacre. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 15:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I have tried correcting and clarifying the casualties figures in the infobox, but Cinderella157 reverted it yesterday, even though all my figures had citations. For one, under Afghanistan communist casualties, the wrong figure is currently listed; 13,310 dead by 1988. But that is the official Soviet fatality figure[1], not the fatality figure of the Afghan communist government. My edit had Antonio Giustozzi as a source, who lists a detailed breakthrough of Afghan communist government forces who died by each year, amounting to over 58,000 dead (page 271).

I also gave a range from 1 to 3 million dead, to clarify.

What were they firebombing towns? Mass executing civilians?

Actually yes. And they did that for over nine years. See also Soviet war crimes and the "War crimes" section in this article. Whether it was "not that bad" or worse than in Serbia during WW1 is something that is irrelevant for this article. The mujahideen had 75,000 to 90,000 dead. As in every article, we go by what reliable sources say. I will try adding this data in the infobox, if anyone finds other good sources, they can add them. But just going on by hyperbole and not believing the sources is just no valid reason to derail the article. --3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the official Soviet figure about casualties: That number changed over time.

Statistics for those who died in the war are disputed. The first official figure—which MPA head Aleksei Lizichev released before the war ended—gave 13,310 dead as of May 1, 1988. But the number grew. In 1989, after the war ended, the GS published the figure of 13,833 soldiers, including 1,979 officers, who were killed (presumably in combat) or died of wounds and sickness; 572 security service (KGB and border guard); 28 MVD personnel; and 190 military advisers, 145 of them officers. Of those who died, 62.5 percent were aged 18 to 20. According to one source, anyone fit to be transported to the Soviet Union was sent there for treatment so as not to enlarge casualty statistics. By the end of the 1990s, it was officially admitted that the total number exceeded 15,000 (15,051), plus 417 either missing in action or captured, of whom 130 had been liberated by January 1, 1999. […] One Russian source writing in the 2000s put the number of deaths at approximately 19,000.

References

--Jo1971 (talk) 17:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

3E1I5S8B9RF7, I expained here, why I reverted your edit. You have reinstated it (with a correction) and the comment that (in part), This is just the first step of the process. It is more important to remedy the body of the article since the infobox is a reflection of the article - not the other way around. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)