Talk:Battle of Red Cliffs
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Some cn issues, questionable sources: what makes chibi.com.cn or Monkeypeaches RS? (t · c) buidhe 02:02, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
- I couldn't find the sources for File:Battle of Red Cliffs 208 extended map-en.svg (based on another unsourced map: File:Chibizhizhan.png) and File:Battle of Red Cliffs 208 map-en.svg (based on another unsourced map as well: File:Chibizhizhanloc2.png).
- The World History Encyclopedia re-uses the former but it's a backwards copy (it cites "User:Sémhur" as the source) so it's a case of WP:CIRCULAR. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- No, no, no. Chen 280 as a direct source. Really? De Crespigny 1969, 1996, 2003
and 2007are straight translations of an 11th century Chinese history. Happily Pei 429 is listed but not used. The last two paragraphs are not cited and there are a couple of "citation needed" tags. Is the Xinhua News Agency a HQ RS? Fitzgerald 1985 is a travelogue and may not be RS and probably isn't HQ. Which leaves a heck of a job to salvage an article from the sources left. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)- If I may say so, De Crespigny 2007 is not a translation. Its his own work, based on lots and lots of different sources. Applodion (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Quite right. Struck. I got carried away. While, for example, To Establish Peace, 1996, is an annotated translation of the 1084 chronicle Zizhi Tongjian by Sima Guang. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: Btw, just to be clear: I would support demoting the article. It clearly does not reflect up-to-date research on the topic, not even when excluding Chinese academia. Applodion (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with the above comments on sourcing. Listing at WP:FARGIVEN. Hog Farm Talk 01:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: Btw, just to be clear: I would support demoting the article. It clearly does not reflect up-to-date research on the topic, not even when excluding Chinese academia. Applodion (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Quite right. Struck. I got carried away. While, for example, To Establish Peace, 1996, is an annotated translation of the 1084 chronicle Zizhi Tongjian by Sima Guang. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- If I may say so, De Crespigny 2007 is not a translation. Its his own work, based on lots and lots of different sources. Applodion (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- No, no, no. Chen 280 as a direct source. Really? De Crespigny 1969, 1996, 2003
@Applodion, A455bcd9, and Gog the Mild: Do you still have concerns about this article's adherence to the FA criteria? If so, are you interested in fixing this up, or nominating this to WP:FAR? The other commentators have already reached their limit on how many articles they can bring to FAR. Z1720 (talk) 19:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
- I am insufficiently familiar with this period and area to undertake the major overhaul saving this would require. If it is indeed salvable, which I doubt. I have no objections in principle to nominating the article for FAR but my previous experience there has been that the procedure is complex and that the tolerance for mis-steps is small, so I am disinclined to. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:23, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
- I still have concerns. I can bring the article to FAR if you want to, although I'm not sure what it concretely implies from me in terms of actual work. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: Sorry that I did not respond to this earlier, as I saw it on my watchlist then forgot about it. I'm sorry that you had bad experiences at FAR; I cannot promise that other experiences will be more pleasant but if you want you can express your concerns on my talk page or by email and I can see if there's a better solution.
- @A455bcd9: I am also sorry that I did not respond to you. Your role would be to give comments on your concerns with the article's adherence to the FA criteria, then provide additional comments if someone decides to fix up the article. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions or concerns before or during the FAR. Z1720 (talk) 18:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- @A455bcd9: Following up on this, are you still interested in bringing this to FAR? You will probably be better at explaining concerns than I am. Z1720 (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Z1720. My concerns are only about the lack of references for a few paragraphs and images. Otherwise, I don't know anything about the topic. I can still nominate it if you want to. I assume I only need to follow the instructions at WP:FAR? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:04, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- @A455bcd9: Following up on this, are you still interested in bringing this to FAR? You will probably be better at explaining concerns than I am. Z1720 (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- I still have concerns. I can bring the article to FAR if you want to, although I'm not sure what it concretely implies from me in terms of actual work. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Sourcing issue deliberation (maps, etc.)
[edit]As Folly Mox has observed on the FAR nomination, some of the issues with sourcing the maps we presently have are not going to be resolvable. The question becomes: do we remove them, replace them with some other presentation, or what?
I am willing to experiment to create whatever new, adequately-sourced graphics are required, as decided by talks here, and am actually pretty excited to try if it improves an article as important as this one. Remsense聊 19:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
- I've discovered the work of @DEGA MD, and I'm going to spend a bit familiarizing myself with the data and techniques they use, because a lot of what I was wondering how to best do is done very well by them. Remsense留 17:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Early map deliberation
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FAR redux
[edit]I suppose it's fair that this pops up again on my watchlist. After my return from being injured and everything I haven't really touched this at all.
I did redownload some sources from Brill prior to its untimely death. Do I just email these to anyone interested in editing / verification? One source which seems certain to be useful for the § Cultural impact is Tian, Xiaofei (2018). The Halberd at Red Cliff: Jian'an and the Three Kingdoms. Harvard–Yenching Monographs, vol. 108. Harvard University Press (published 2017). ISBN 9781684170920. Particularly pp. 283–345. I might have already cited this last winter. The pdf is a chonkin 46MB, so I can't just email it, and I've noticed that google drive does some very annoying DRM checking on certain file formats, including pdf, that prevent me from sharing files uploaded there.
Pretty sure another useful source would be Egan, Ronald C. (1994). Word, Image, and Deed in the Life of Su Shi. Harvard–Yenching Monographs, vol. 39. Harvard University Press. ISBN 9781684170197., at an even heftier 119MB.
I also seem to have Wang Wenjin (王文進) (April 2010). 論「赤壁意象」的行成與流轉—「國事」、「史事」、「心事」、「故事」的四重奏. 成大中學報 [National Cheng Kung University Journal of Chinese Studies] (in Chinese). 28: 83–124. I have no idea where this came from; probably NCKU itself.
I don't think I ended up with much else; as indicated somewhere here or the FAR page, de Crespigny has a near-monopoly on English language historical studies of the period.
I saw somewhere just this morning a comment that the § Fictionalised account section only talks about Sanguo Yanyi, which means we haven't made sufficiently clear that even the accounts carried by Annotated Records of the Three Kingdoms are already at odds with each other (I feel like this was what I was reading about in 《三國志集解》 right before this fell off my radar in like December; de Crespigny also touches on how Zhuge Liang came to end up with all the credit in stories where Zhou Yu or Sun Quan was the original hero, although which of his books talks about this, I couldn't say from memory).
Just woke up, Folly Mox (talk) 09:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
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