Talk:Black Hours, Morgan MS 493

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Dating

Interesting article and beautiful pages. But regarding "1475 Bruges", this seems odd to me. I first read this as akin "1475 BC" or "1475 AD". I think this would be better reworded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.240.68 (talk) 12:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Fixed now, thanks for spotting. Ceoil (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Complied

The following is a complete list of the miniatures:

• Folio 14v: The Crucifixion (opposite "Hours of the Cross")
• Folio 18v: Pentecost (opposite "Hours of the Holy Spirit: Matins")
• Folio 22v: Virgin and Child (opposite "Mass of the Virgin")
• Folio 29v: Annunciation (opposite "Hours of the Virgin: Matins")
• Folio 39v: Visitation (opposite "Hours of the Virgin: Lauds")
• Folio 50v: Nativity ("Hours of the Virgin: Prime")
• Folio 54v: Annunciation to the Shepherds (opposite "Hours of the Virgin: Terce")
• Folio 58v: Adoration of the Magi (opposite "Hours of the Virgin: Sext")
• Folio 62v: Massacre of the Innocents (opposite "Hours of the Virgin")
• Folio 66v: Flight into Egypt (opposite "Hours of the Virgin")
• Folio 72v: Coronation of the Virgin (opposite "Hours of the Virgin: Compline")
• Folio 76v: David in prayer (opposite "Penitential Psalms and Litany")
• Folio 93v: Resurrection of Lazarus (opposite "Office of the Dead: Vespers")
• Folio 98v: Chanting of the Office of the Dead (opposite "Office of the Dead: Matins")

Title

We should not have "MS" titles that don't clearly specify the library. This should be Black Hours, MS Morgan 493, Black Hours, Morgan MS 493 or Black Hours, Morgan Library MS 493 - don't really mind which. The others should probably have redirects. BnF and BL maybe be enough to identify (for the cognoscenti anyway), but "M" isn't. The French and German equivalents here translate Black Hours rather than this specific book. Johnbod (talk) 21:33, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok thanks for guidance, and moved. I notice other languages referring to it as the Morgan Black Book of hours, which is not ideal to say the least. Ceoil (talk) 21:44, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "The French and German equivalents here translate Black Hours rather than this specific book". Is that a fault here or there. Ceoil (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Tks for moving. I meant "also known as the Morgan Black hours; French: Livre d'heures Noir, German: Schwarzes Stundenbuch" - these are just the general terms, no? More appropriate at Black books of hours. The German term is sometimes used by itself for the Morgan one, I admit, but the "schwarze Stundenbuch Karls des Kühnen" is in Vienna - google books. French equivalent. Not totally sure we need them anyway. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah ok understand a bit better now and have (unsuccessfully) agonised over these titles and tree branches for years. Hope all is well otherwise John from stormy and unpredictable Cork. Ceoil (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

It's been two years so I'm not indenting. I'm a historian, so I understand where the "MS" comes from but - and pardon me for shouting - THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOESN'T. I'm personally more than a little annoyed that this article, as good as it may be, is featured and yet NOWHERE in the opening paragraph is there clarification of the library where itnis held or the reason it is called MS 493" throughout the article. I'm so unimpressed with the lack of attention to this. By now Wikipedia and its top editors surely should know better. Much of this piece therefore reads like something written by and for experts and not for the general public. Really disappointed in this feature selection today. Even if no one else agrees here, I am certain I am not alone. 2604:2000:E005:5300:28FE:78C5:5429:D2D3 (talk) 13:06, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@2604:2000:E005:5300:28FE:78C5:5429:D2D3 thanks for that. I've linked MS at first usage, it's fair to say that was an oversight. I'm not sure I follow regarding the library: it mentions it's held at the Morgan, NY. Did you mean something else? No harm in shouting occasionally...sometimes it's the only way of making yourself heard.

PS, for an example of using footnotes, see, for example, our article on Pope Adrian IV. Cheers, and stay safe. ——SN54129 13:15, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

sound, serial. Ceoil (talk) 13:29, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Fair point. Have only my phone at hand atm, so give me an hour or so to move the last sentence in the lead up Closer to the opening sentences, Ceoil (talk) 13:12, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I moved it...twice. First to the opening sentence (but was that too immediate) and then to the opening the second lead para, which is a good compromise? ——SN54129 13:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Emerald green

There are two mentions of emerald green in the article that strike me as anachronistic. "The borders are coloured in light blue[5] and the colour scheme of the illustrations is overwhelmingly dark, consisting of black, grey red, old rose, and emerald green pigments," and "The initial letters of the texts are formed from gold leaf on emerald ground". Emerald green, aka Paris green or Schweinfurt Green wasn't available until about 1814. The source www.omifacsimiles.com/cats/hours_i.pdf may be referring to a different pigment when is refers to "gold leaf on an emerald ground". Vexations (talk) 22:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Vexations, it late here, so suggest rephrasing as simply "green" until sources are revisited, which will be sometime over weekend. Ceoil (talk) 23:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

To note, this was corrected long ago. Ceoil (talk) 00:47, 26 October 2019 (UTC)