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In the statement of a leading klansman retiring after it's revealed he was a sex offender, there is an "a" missing from the text. Chodley (talk) 21:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 05:12, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about the history documented in the Wikipedia entry? The organization started as an arm of the democrat party. 2601:C2:1A00:1083:91C6:5C23:FF72:18CE (talk) 00:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WINARS. Plus, I am not sure you've heard of this concept, but: things change. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably time for an FAQ that we can at least point the history-impaired to. Not that it will make any difference to someone who imagines things today are just like they were in 1865, but ... Acroterion(talk) 01:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, things change over time, such as the political influence of the klan. At one time it had significant political influence and today it has none or even negative. So pick a time when it has political influence to try to define the ideology, perhaps the early 1940s. I wouldn't consider the party of FDR far-right. 2601:C2:1A00:1083:C97:F09F:996D:1B2D (talk) 12:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So I guess you are conceding that far-right may be an appropriate label today? And the party of FDR was a complicated one. The right-left distinction is, at the best of times, reductive, but when dealing with a splintering like the Democratic party experienced with the Dixiecrats, it can often be misleading. The article as currently presented does not hide the Klan's origins and alignment with the Democratic party, but neither should it downplay its current or historic stances and how they are described in reliable sources. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm suggesting that if you want to ascribe an underlying ideology, then maybe a weighted average of the predominant ideology weighted by political influence over time would be more meaningful. Or, even better, since there is no specific ideology over time, apolitical would be a better description. 2601:C2:1A00:1083:C97:F09F:996D:1B2D (talk) 15:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This all strikes me as sort of antithetical to the way an encyclopedia organizes information, but to each their own. As mentioned, reliable sources would help, and when you have consensus for the changes you would like to see, by all means make them. Happy Friday. Dumuzid (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Antithetical, I suppose in that an encyclopedia must be continuously updated or becomes antiquated. Perhaps that results from defining something that ultimately does not exist, such as an underlying ideology for this organization. It seems to me that its ideology is fluid and ascribes to whatever is willing to support its principles of tribalism and hatred. For example, today I would say antisemitism is more aligned with a far-left ideology. I'll see what I can come up with. Have a great weekend. 2601:C2:1A00:1083:C97:F09F:996D:1B2D (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just out of curiosity, are there any negative traits you would ascribe to right or far-right ideology? Dumuzid (talk) 16:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the KKK is undoubtedly diabolical, consistency should be applied across similar organizations on Wikipedia. Both the pages of ISIS and Al-Qaeda, despite widely recognised as terrorist organisations, avoid explicit labelling as such due to NPOV concerns. If ISIS's page uses more descriptive language to portray its actions than just "terrorist", then the same approach should be taken for the KKK. Zinderboff(talk) 13:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have a point, per Wikipedia:LABEL The description should be attributed. Also, the Klan included groups whose primary purpose was terrorism, groups that used terrorism but had other main objectives and groups that did not engage in terrorism. TFD (talk) 23:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TFD If this is the case, should the label be changed to something else, as not to violate LABEL and NPOV? Zinderboff(talk) 16:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully this discussion doesn't get as chaotic as the last. My fundamental argument is that words like "terrorist organisation" are generally too bloated for Wikipedia, and thus should be avoided, at least in the first sentence. Most if not all organisations referred to as "terrorist organisations" by nations or international bodies do not have such terminology in their first sentence on Wikipedia, later on maybe. I don't think the KKK has been more "terrorist-y" than ISIS, Al Qaeda or Boko Haram to warrant such label when those organisations do not. Zinderboff(talk) 17:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cakelot1, thanks for pinging us. Zinderboff, I think that this article is well in line with WP:LABEL (the term is used by a multitude of RS; since the lead summarizes the body, we don't have to add refs to the lead), and I also think that this problem should be resolved locally (i.e. without focussing too much on what other articles do - your examples are all about comparatively short-lived religious terrorism, while this is about 150+ years of racist terrorism). But I do agree that the "2nd Klan" sections should contain more stuff about why and by whom they were labelled as terrorists. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Making comparisons to other terrorist organizations (articles) is unnecessary and does not provide an objective view as to why the KKK is primarily a terrorist organization according to reliable sources. This question has been raised before. It's eerily familiar. The simple answer is, founded by Confederate veterans in the wake of the American civil war, the KKK's primary purpose became establishing political hegemony and committing acts of violence over the Southern US and it's citizens.
The KKK used propaganda, coercion and violence that sought to create fear, not just within the direct victims but among a wide audience. That's the definition of a terrorist organization. DN (talk) 20:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:LABEL says terms such as terrorist "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." That means we would attribute the claim in the text of the lead and not state it as a fact.
Also, reliable sources such as the SPLC do not refer to the various existing Klan organizations as terrorist groups. The implicit claim in the lead that all Klan organizations were terrorist is false.
DN, you are referring to the first Klan but there have been numerous organizations of the Klan which do not meet that description. TFD (talk) 20:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There were three entirely different USA organizations that called themselves KKK. First in 1860s and 3rd in late 20th century = yes terrorist by unanimous agreement of reliable sources. 2nd KKK in 1920s was not terrorist--it had many thousands of chapters nationwide and a few probably did use violence, but not the great majority. However in 1920s its opponents often accused it of terrorism but consensus of historians now reject that false allegation. Rjensen (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have not come across any article of the countless organisations labelled terrorist which use such in the first sentence. I am not advocating for the removal of the tag altogether, I am suggesting to include it lower down in the lead. In the case of recent religious terrorist organisations, I believe heavily that they are relevant, it is not the type of terrorism which is committed but terrorism itself. The usage of propaganda, coercion and violence that sought to create fear, not just within the direct victims but among a wide audience is present in all aforementioned entities. Those pages don't omit the tag, just mentions it later on, which is what I'm suggesting for this article.
The Islamic State article for example says it is "Designated a terrorist organization by the United Nations and others, IS was known for its massive human rights violations.", doing so in the forth sentence of the lead not the first. Using "terrorist organisation" in the first sentence seems extremely odd, no organisation I have come across has that, hard to think the KKK is in itself unique enough to warrant such a difference.
Having something along the lines of "white supremacist organisation" in the first sentence, with the "terrorist organisation" tag later could work. With something along the lines of "The first and third rendition of the Klan is widely considered to be terrorist organisations". Zinderboff(talk) 04:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's unclear how "less like a terrorist organization" during the second wave justifies the removal, meanwhile see the Ocoee massacre. In that time period racism was so commonplace the KKK had to differentiate themselves by adding more new targets...
Aside from that and what's already in the article and in the archives, here's another RS to consider:
1. PBS Has the KKK always functioned as a violent terrorist group? "The KKK's emphasis on violence and intimidation as a means to defend its white supremacist ends has been the primary constant across its various "waves." - David Cunningham (sociologist)DN (talk) 09:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Historian David Chalmers asserts: "the evidence does not point to Klan responsibility or participation in the election day race riot in Ocoee in 1920" see David Chalmers, "The Ku Klux Klan in the Sunshine State: The 1920's." The Florida Historical Quarterly (1964): 209-215 at p. 210 online here. Rjensen (talk) 16:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC).[reply]
I suppose that is one way to see it.
The full quote reads...
Although the evidence does not point to Klan responsibility or participation in the election day race riot in Ocoee in 1920, or in the clash at Rosewood, in Levy County, two years later in which eight people were killed and the Negro community was burned out, the In-visible Empire was very active elsewhere in the State.
The West Indian rector of a church in the Negro section of Miami was flogged and tarred and feathered for “preaching Negro equality” and was warned to leave town under pain of death. In another community, the Klan reportedly threatened to lynch a local judge for enforcing the traffic laws, and Colonel Simmons suspended the Pensacola Klavern for unauthorized violence when it threatened a Greek restauranteur. Initially, however, such episodes were sporadic as the Klan concentrated on politics and expansion. As elsewhere in the South, the Klan sought to keep Negroes from the polls, and in Jacksonville and Orlando open parades and covert warnings of violence were used. By 1922, the Klan had emerged as a direct participant in politics.
What is Chalmer's assertion about the KKK as a terror organization?
Britannica"In Ocoee the Klan began threatening the Black community three weeks before the 1920 election, claiming that “not a single Negro would be permitted to vote.” Moreover, the Florida Klan’s grand master sent a letter to two local Republican officials, threatening to retaliate if Black and white officials continued instructing local African Americans on how to cast ballots and pay poll taxes. “We shall always enjoy WHITE SUPREMACY in this country,” the letter read, “and he who interferes must face the consequences.”DN (talk) 03:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cunningham does not say the Klan is a terrorist organization. TFD (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Four Deuces Where did I say he said that in the citation? DN (talk) 01:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If he didn't say that, then what is the relevance of his comments to the discussion? We are discussing whether or not the article should refer to the KKK as a terrorist organization. TFD (talk) 11:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 05:12, 13 April 2024 (UTC)