Talk:List of castles in England/Archive 1
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Colchester Castle
Colchester Castle is listed on this page as being "Privately Owned", which is incorrect. The article states ownership correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merenta (talk • contribs) 18:14, 20 October 2004 (UTC)
Counties
This listing should be under the Traditional Counties of England, for most of the castles were built in feudal times and before the recent changes in government administration over boundaries. Castles are as useful today as the archaic address system, whereby one can write in the Trad. Co. form. The castles had a territorial system based upon the T.C. and this article is ignorant of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScapegoatVandal (talk • contribs) 23:39, 11 June 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree - the medieval counties were actually very different to the "traditional counties" anyway, and changed significantly over the medieval period. VivaEmilyDavies 20:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Categories
Does this page carry the same information that Category:Castles_In_England carries? Seems that there are two different areas with roughly the same information. Ianmccurdy 16:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- I guess the advantage of a list is that these include mentions of castles that aren't really worthy of an article of their own accord.
Castle text
There is a big chunk of text on the castle page, headed 'Influence of castles in Britain' [[Castle#Influence_of_castles_in_Britain], which seems out of place on the general castle page. As it deals only with England (not Britain), from the 11th to 13th centuries, I wondered if there was any scope for moving the section onto this page. Any thoughts/suggestions? ::Supergolden:: 11:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think the section should be made a standalone article linked from that article and from the relevant England historical articles. Saga City 12:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- OK, move to Influence of castles in England then? Or, as an alternative, move this list page to List of castles in England, and move the section to Castles in England, with a view to expanding it into a proper overview of the subject. This is an idea that has been discussed regarding Castles in Scotland, and was generally met favourably, though not yet implemented. ::Supergolden:: 13:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- I prefer the alternative you suggest, moving this page to List of castles in England (which fits better with the rest of the pages in Category:Lists of castles) and moving the section to Castles in England. There's much more to say about English castles (history, architecture, etc.) than simply their influence.
- In any case, the section needs to be reworked - it seems to be taken from the 1911 Britannica (judging by the original diff. (Assuming it wasn't taken from this page which has the same content...) --David Edgar 17:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- You're right, its from EB 1911 [1]. Definitely a need to expand, but its a start. I may just have to be bold and move this.::Supergolden:: 10:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:EH icon.png
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Greater Manchester
Would anyone object if I were to make a separate table for the castles in Greater Manchester and move into it the castles that are now in the historic county of Cheshire, etc.? Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Fort or castle ?
Not sure of your terms of reference, if a fort is classed as a castle then you have the Roman fort in Castlefields, Manchester. Forgive me if I am way off topic.......... Phil aka Geotek (talk) 02:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- It seems to be there as Manchester Castle. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- Not quite, Manchester Castle is different to the Roman fort in Manchester. It depends what your definition of a castle is. My own opinion is that Roman fortifications should not be included in this article, although the word castle derives from castellum, Latin for 'little fort' or 'refuge'. Nev1 (talk) 22:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Overhaul
In its present state, this article isn't very helpful, it's not much more than a list of names. I think maybe new tables need to be introduced with more information such as the dates of construction and perhaps the type of castle. Any thoughts on what else could be done to improve this? Nev1 (talk) 22:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. The format used on the List of Castles in Scotland page might be a good starting point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Findan (talk • contribs) 20:36, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Hadlow Castle
Should Hadlow Castle be added to the Kent section? Mjroots (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
- As Hadlow dates from the late 18th century it is not a castle.
- On a related note, what is and is not a castle is a slightly wooly area, but I think if this list goes by D J Cathcart King's Castellarium Anglicanum (a gazetteer of castles in England and Wales) there should be little room for arguement as the decision of what is and is not a castle is taken away from editors. That said, the list is incomplete and pretty poor really. Nev1 (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Question on artillery forts
It's great to see Paravane giving the article some much needed TLC. The list currently includes artillery forts/Henrican castles and I was wondering what people's thoughts are on this. I'm in two minds. Castellarium Anglicanum includes them, but D. J. Cathcart King was criticised for doing so. However, he argued that as his attempt was to create a comprehensive index, it was better to be as inclusive as possible, which may be analogous to what this article should be attempting. Nev1 (talk) 11:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think, like tower houses, they are on the cusp, and should be included. They were considered castles at the time, and most volumes I've read on English castles end with a chapter on them. I'd not include the post-Civil War coastal forts though, which seem to me to fall the wrong side of the line (even if architecturally similar). Hchc2009 (talk) 12:34, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm glad my efforts have been noticed! I'm not significantly changing what's listed, except to try to reduce the impact of castles of which little or nothing remains. My view is that the list should - as it already does - cover all types of buildings that are commonly described and accepted as castles, rather than hold to a strict definition, especially since there will now be an outline description and date for each building. So for instance I've added Peckforton Castle - again - but I plan to remove Barbury and Castle Ashby. Paravane (talk) 15:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I can only agree with the above sentiments. Could we go further and flag, for example, follies as such and make it clear that they're not castles? The advantage of doing so would to stop well-intentioned others from adding entries to the list that would not be so flagged. S a g a C i t y (talk) 15:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- Unless we list every building that includes the word 'castle' in its name, there'll always be a problem with spurious entries being added. There very much needs to be a preamble to the list which outlines the kinds of buildings included, and that could incorporate a simple listing of buildings that do not belong in the main list, such as Maiden Castle, Severndroog Castle and any faux ruined castles built as garden ornaments. Paravane (talk) 16:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- The other problem that will continue to be an issue, I suspect, is the sheer number of castles in England (even on a conservative basis!) - if the list here was fully fleshed out, particularly if it including those castles where earthworks remain (which in some cases are quite significant), I worry that it would become unmanageably long. I have wondered in the past if the list might not ultimately work better if it broke down by county, but then left each county list page to provide the details of the individual castles. But in the meantime, nicely done! Hchc2009 (talk) 17:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm more than happy with the answer to my question on scope. This looks to be shaping up very interestingly. As images are being integrated in the tables, we can probably remove the ribbon of images down the right hand side of the list which I added mostly as decoration (it was also a way of highlighting the more interesting castles in what at the time was a pretty drab list). The issue of length has put me off having a go at the list before. Paravane's approach of excluding those of which little remains is an interesting approach; sub-lists, such as list of castles in Gloucestershire could then go into much greater detail as Hchc2009 says and of course include these vanished castles. Would it be useful to have a co-ordinates column? As the list has been significantly changed already, this may be a pain to go back and do but I'd be happy to help with that if we can decide on how to do it. Nev1 (talk) 14:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've excluded a Location column because of the extra work! If added I'd favour it being the last column. I agree that sublists, as exist for Cheshire and others, are a good way to provide extra details and pursue completeness. Most of the images in the ribbon will be included in the lists though smaller, I plan to remove them when/if I get to the top of the list, possibly retain a few alongside some introductory text. Paravane (talk) 15:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm more than happy with the answer to my question on scope. This looks to be shaping up very interestingly. As images are being integrated in the tables, we can probably remove the ribbon of images down the right hand side of the list which I added mostly as decoration (it was also a way of highlighting the more interesting castles in what at the time was a pretty drab list). The issue of length has put me off having a go at the list before. Paravane's approach of excluding those of which little remains is an interesting approach; sub-lists, such as list of castles in Gloucestershire could then go into much greater detail as Hchc2009 says and of course include these vanished castles. Would it be useful to have a co-ordinates column? As the list has been significantly changed already, this may be a pain to go back and do but I'd be happy to help with that if we can decide on how to do it. Nev1 (talk) 14:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- The other problem that will continue to be an issue, I suspect, is the sheer number of castles in England (even on a conservative basis!) - if the list here was fully fleshed out, particularly if it including those castles where earthworks remain (which in some cases are quite significant), I worry that it would become unmanageably long. I have wondered in the past if the list might not ultimately work better if it broke down by county, but then left each county list page to provide the details of the individual castles. But in the meantime, nicely done! Hchc2009 (talk) 17:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- Unless we list every building that includes the word 'castle' in its name, there'll always be a problem with spurious entries being added. There very much needs to be a preamble to the list which outlines the kinds of buildings included, and that could incorporate a simple listing of buildings that do not belong in the main list, such as Maiden Castle, Severndroog Castle and any faux ruined castles built as garden ornaments. Paravane (talk) 16:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I can only agree with the above sentiments. Could we go further and flag, for example, follies as such and make it clear that they're not castles? The advantage of doing so would to stop well-intentioned others from adding entries to the list that would not be so flagged. S a g a C i t y (talk) 15:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm glad my efforts have been noticed! I'm not significantly changing what's listed, except to try to reduce the impact of castles of which little or nothing remains. My view is that the list should - as it already does - cover all types of buildings that are commonly described and accepted as castles, rather than hold to a strict definition, especially since there will now be an outline description and date for each building. So for instance I've added Peckforton Castle - again - but I plan to remove Barbury and Castle Ashby. Paravane (talk) 15:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Isle of Man
There seems currently to be an anomaly in that there are lists of castles for England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the Channel Isles, together covering all of the British Isles, but not the Isle of Man. Since there are, I think, only 2 castles in the Isle of Man, ignoring mock castles, a separate list would seem inappropriate. One possibility would be to include the IOM in one of the other lists, and arguably the most appropriate would be the list for England, on the grounds of historical and of popular association. The list could be renamed List of castles in England and the Isle of Man. Since Castle Rushen in the IOM is considered one of the finest in the British Isles, it is a pity for it not to be listed somewhere, other than the global List of castles page. Does anyone have any thoughts? Paravane (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Created new list for Isle of Man with 6 entries. Paravane (talk) 20:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
ones missing in hampshire and IOW
- Possibly St Andrew's castle at Hamble-le-Rice although its unclear if it was actualy a castle
- Godshill castle very little left
- merdon castle some walls remain
- Two castles in Crondall (see Crondall#Barley_Pound.2C_Motte_and_Bailey) very little left
Taken from The Castles of Hampshire & Isle of Wight.©Geni 00:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've added all those at the top of the Hampshire list. St. Andrew's Castle is listed as a Henrician fort, so the Hamble-le-Rice page should perhaps be edited. The Hursley entry also seems misleading, Merdon castle is listed as a motte and bailey with earthwork remains, as well as a building at risk. Paravane (talk) 20:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- since we now have an article on Warblington Castle and it has a fair bit of stonework standing could be promoted into the list proper?©Geni 07:10, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Done. It's a marginal case I think, a single slender turret is not much and it seems less than certain that it was actually a fortified building, but it's remarkably tall and we now have a photograph! Paravane (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Location maps
Location maps would be more valuable if each site on the map could be made clickable to access Geohack mapping. This would solve the problem of providing location data for all the castle sites. Currently the whole map image is clickable to access the larger image. All that is necessary in the html is to provide the same clickable feature for each of the red/green location images, supplying the required href for each. This feature seems not to be currently available in {{Location map~}}, but it should be very straightforward to implement. Does anyone know whether this facility is available, or has been requested, or how best to go about requesting it? Paravane (talk) 17:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- The maps look good, although - as ever! - I worry about the length of the article if they're done for all of the counties. Cumbria and Northumberland and some of the "busier" maps are going to be hard work, I think - but we can deal with that when we get there. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- The geohack facility looks set to be implemented, it will probably require using the
{{Location map+}}
template, which is rather different from the{{Location map}}
used so far. See Template talk:Location map. Paravane (talk) 21:07, 17 July 2011 (UTC)- Since Northumberland was one of the counties for which maps might be too densely populated, I have tried programming it in (the old method for now I'm afraid).
- As expected, the map is extremely busy so I'm not at all convinced that it will work. I've done one with labels and without labels. I haven't put any on the main page.
- As the list of castle remnants for such counties are quite long, we can at least use a larger map. I've included the list and map below so you can see the size comparison.
- What do you think?
- The geohack facility looks set to be implemented, it will probably require using the
I
I
I
Staward & Willimoteswick
Howtel
Shilbottle
Featherstone
I
Beaufront & Dilston & Corbridge
I
Haltwhistle & Bellister
Castles of which little or nothing remains include:
- Burradon Tower,
- Cornhill Castle,
- Dally Castle,
- Duddo Tower,
- Ford Parson's Tower,
- Great Tosson Tower,
- Haltwhistle Castle,
- Heiferlaw Tower,
- Hepple Tower,
- Hethpool Tower,
- Howtel Tower,
- Kyloe Tower,
- Little Swinburne Tower,
- Lowick Castle,
- Nafferton Castle,
- Overgrass Tower,
- Ponteland Castle,
- Simonburn Castle,
- Staward Peel,
- Tarset Castle,
- Thornton Tower,
- Warden Castle,
- Wark Castle,
- Welton Hall,
- West Lilburn Tower and
- Widdrington Castle
- The one without labels does look neater, if that is preferred, should more colours be used to denote different types of castle? Or we could use the symbols used in the tables as I've done for Berkshire below? Just thoughts if labels won't work...