Talk:Second Vatican Council

This  level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:Christianity: Theology Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by theology work group (assessed as Top-importance).

Catholicism Top‑importance

	Second Vatican Council is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, an attempt to better organize and improve the quality of information in articles related to the Catholic Church. For more information, visit the project page.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Catholicism task list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : see Draft articles Assess : see Category:Unassessed Catholicism articles; Category:Unknown-importance Catholicism articles Cleanup : Blessed Virgin Mary (see the talk page) Collaborate : Invitation template needed, see Category:WikiProject invitation templates Copyedit : Cuthbert Tunstall Expand : Angelus; Roman Catholicism in Kosovo; Bishop Adolph John Paschang; Cum sæpe accidere; Altar Society; American Board of Catholic Missions; Bernard Häring NPOV : Americanism (heresy); Ensoulment Photo : see Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of Catholicism Stubs : see Category:Stub-Class Catholicism articles; Category:Catholic Church stubs Update : Peer review; John Aloysius Maguire Verify : Archdiocese of Glasgow; Archbishop of Westminster; Bishop; Saint Mungo; Sanctification; Westminster Cathedral Other : Watch recent changes for Catholicism articles

European Microstates: Vatican City

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject European Microstates, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of European Microstates on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Vatican City (assessed as Top-importance).

Religion Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Section sizes

Section size for Second Vatican Council (85 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 4,147 4,147 Background 18 4,497 Biblical movement 1,346 1,346 Ressourcement and Nouvelle théologie 3,133 3,133 Beginnings 222 25,558 Announcement and expectations 6,856 6,856 Preparation 3,566 3,566 Organization 11,168 11,168 Main players 3,746 3,746 Chronology of the council 77 80,504 First period: 11 October – 8 December 1962 53 11,707 Opening Day 2,187 2,187 Commissions 2,767 2,767 Liturgy schema 1,228 1,228 Schema on revelation 1,858 1,858 Schema on the modern means of communication 625 625 Schema on Unity with the Eastern Orthodox 596 596 Schema on the Church 1,384 1,384 End of the First Period 1,009 1,009 Interval between first and second periods 51 3,681 The Coordinating Commission and the Revision of the Schemas 1,454 1,454 The death of John XXIII and the election of Paul VI 888 888 Reorganization 1,288 1,288 Second period: 29 September – 4 December 1963 57 12,514 Opening 1,237 1,237 Schema on the Church 5,229 5,229 Schema on the Virgin Mary 759 759 Schema on Bishops and the Governance of Dioceses 1,963 1,963 Schemas on Liturgy and Modern Means of Communication 817 817 Schema on Ecumenism 1,425 1,425 The End of the Second Period 1,027 1,027 Interval between second and third periods 51 2,875 Pilgrimage to the Holy Land 468 468 Revision of the schemas 879 879 Encyclical on the Church 322 322 Women lay auditors 1,155 1,155 Third period: 14 September – 21 November 1964 57 24,467 Opening 1,081 1,081 Schema on the Church 1,614 1,614 Schema on Bishops 426 426 Schemas on religious freedom and non-Christian religions 4,651 4,651 Schema on Revelation 2,102 2,102 Seven New Schemas 5,265 5,265 Schema on the Church in the Modern World 4,289 4,289 "Black Week" 3,805 3,805 The End of the Third Session 1,177 1,177 Interval between third and fourth periods 185 1,838 Trip to India 400 400 First liturgical changes 579 579 Ongoing revision of the schemas 674 674 Fourth period: 14 September – 8 December 1965 300 23,345 Opening 1,640 1,640 Schemas: Religious Freedom, Revelation 2,184 2,184 Schema on the Church in the Modern World 4,333 4,333 Pope Paul at the United Nations 980 980 Schemas: Missions, Education, Non-Christian religions, Priests 4,812 4,812 A change of pace 1,565 1,565 Voting on the last schemas 2,596 2,596 Indulgences 1,389 1,389 The Council's Final Days 3,546 3,546 Documents of the council 6,192 39,663 Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy 6,057 6,057 Dogmatic Constitution on the Church 3,629 3,629 Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation 3,523 3,523 Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World 654 654 Decrees and declarations on the Church as People of God 8,789 8,789 Decrees and declarations on the Church in the world 10,819 10,819 Impact of Vatican II 84 12,045 Vatican II was a record-breaking event 1,931 1,931 Importance of Vatican II 1,884 1,884 Key Developments due to Vatican II 2,358 2,358 Some changes resulting from Vatican II 5,207 5,207 Vatican II and the pontificate of Pope Francis 581 581 Controversies 130 9,462 Validity of the Council 2,837 2,837 Authority of the council's teaching 2,658 2,658 "The Spirit of Vatican II" 3,837 3,837 Legacy 14 1,634 Vatican II participants who later became pope 782 782 Saints of Vatican II 838 838 Notes 50 50 References 17 4,405 Citations 31 31 Sources 4,357 4,357 External links 1,129 1,129 Total 183,094 183,094

"the notion of the Catholic Church alone brings through ultimate salvation to mankind"

This is either incorrect or unclearly written. AFAIK Vat II brought forward that the Catholic Church is not the ONLY way to salvation; salvation can be found also in other churches but the RCC has the fullness of faith. The way it's written, it looks like "it's RCC or you're gone, period". --90.236.11.180 (talk) 15:38, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

You are incorrect about what Vatican II taught. The Church has always held that there is no salvation outside the Church. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Elizium23 (talk) 17:56, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

English speaker needed

Much of this article is very unclear, and thus hard to understand. For instance "These groups, composed mostly of members of the Roman Curia, produced 987 proposed constituting sessions, making it the largest gathering in any council in church history. (This compares to Vatican I, where 737 attended, mostly from Europe.)" There were "987 proposed sessions" but it compares to "737 attended"? 188.141.10.11 (talk) 00:00, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

This sentence no longer appears in the article. The comment about this sentence will be removed from the talk page in one month if no one objects to this response. MDJH (talk) 20:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

And while you're at it here is another sentence that I could not parse:

"In the 1950s, theological and biblical studies in the Catholic Church had begun to sway away from the Neo-Scholasticism and biblical literalism which a reaction to Catholic modernism had enforced since the First Vatican Council." LastDodo (talk) 10:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

This sentence no longer appears in the article. The comment about this sentence will be removed from the talk page in one month if no one objects to this response. MDJH (talk) 20:08, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Dabru Emet

although it took a will, that's the jewish response to the Second Vatican Council, and need to be add to this article.--Setareh1990 (talk) 07:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable secondary source that says this, other than your insertion in that article today? Elizium23 (talk) 18:11, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Second Vatican Council. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130922015955/http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/2002d/100402/100402d.htm to http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/2002d/100402/100402d.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 14:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Poorly-Cited John XXIII Quote

Under "Background," it states that "John XXIII often said that it was time to 'open the windows [of the Church] and let in some fresh air.'" However, the source provided does not indicate that it was "often said." The source neither claimed to be quoting John XXIII. It's hard for me to track down the quote. However, this NCR article may work for now. (https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vatican-ii-its-about-fresh-air)

Birthdayfan (talk) 20:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Second Vatican Council. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110610203034/https://www.aei.org/basicPages/20031124161414312 to http://www.aei.org/basicPages/20031124161414312
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120905114740/https://conciliaria.com/ to http://www.conciliaria.com/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:28, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Second Vatican Council. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170419004349/http://www.americamagazine.org/issue/404/article/anniversary-thoughts to http://www.americamagazine.org/issue/404/article/anniversary-thoughts
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120719064228/http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c02206.htm to http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c02206.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:25, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Missing one English translation of commission name

Try as I might, I couldn't find a translation of De sacramentorum disciplina. Disciplina may mean discipline; however it may also mean teaching, knowledge, or way/custom. It seems this commission's not as well-documented as some others. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 08:56, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

where?

"Pope John XXIII opened the Council on 11 October 1962 in ????????????? and read the declaration Gaudet Mater Ecclesia before the Council Fathers."

I can't see where the public sessions took place.

Please add vital information.94.222.16.98 (talk) 11:38, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

The second sentence of the lede says the Council took place in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The section on the opening of the Council says the opening session (and the Pope's address) took place in St. Peter's. MDJH (talk) 20:28, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Citation needed

Can someone explain me why this sentence needs citation?

"In the 1950s, theological and biblical studies in the Catholic Church had begun to sway away from the Neo-Scholasticism and biblical literalism which a reaction to Catholic modernism had enforced since the First Vatican Council."

I know it is a big claim. But it is fair to raise personal opinion or interpretation no matter how big or small the claim is right? I mean how wikipedia work better than google answers? if we just repeat what other people say.

I don't understand why he has to justify his statement? Maybe it is generally considered that because there should be a discussion on this in the literature, that some prestigious or known schoolar most be quoted here? and indeed this is not generally accept knowledge. In that case I will suggest you say the nota says: "quotation on discussions needed" or something alike, just making it more specific.

Please don't be pretentious and try to elaborate, if you want to answer me. In general I believe there is no perfect encyclopedia. I mean, enclopedist like we editors of wikipedia, always leave something from their own in their work. And as I said, I hope one day wikipedia can be more like the stanford encyclopedia in speculative and deductive matters. Although this might be contradictory to the realm of public access and internet, since concepts are becoming more and more quantified, and we cannot just put them free accessible because people will try to quantify (making intelligible units of knowledge) on them. That is not really the aim of deductive sciences nowdays. Anyways, this seems will contradict the motto of wikipedia.

For years I have been asking myself if someone can write philosophy online and free accessible, but it seems just not of this era. Btw. Stanford encyclopedia is not really what I mean here, it is usefull for scholary purposes, but not for big claims!

Kind regards, and thanks in advanced for your thoughts and answers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josemazcorro (talk • contribs) 12:50, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Controversies

A number of controversies about Vatican II are discussed in the sections on "Objections to the Council" and "Legacy". I propose moving the discussion of these controversies to a new section called "Controversies". I can see 4 subjects in that section: (1) the validity of Vatican II; (2) the theological authority of Vatican II; (3) the interpretation of Vatican II's texts (example "hermeneutic of rupture" vs "hermeneutic of continuity"); (4) the "spirit of Vatican II". I will wait a month to see if anyone reacts to this proposal. If nothing significant happens in that time, I will go ahead with the change. MDJH (talk) 22:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Sociological Legacy Needs Elaboration

The profound legacy - the failure to fulfil the promise of modernisation - initiated the wholesale abandonment of the church by the 'faithful' in the West, in both observance and belief. It's the elephant in the room here. The elephant demands and deserves attention. It should receive it, if only by way of a link to a new topic; the collapse of Roman Catholic belief in the West. Since Vatican II an overwhelming majority of western Roman Catholics have adopted the mores and live - for all practical purposes - as protestants do; with little to no involvement with the institution of their religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.151.210.84 (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source discussing this topic, feel free to add what it says. Veverve (talk) 17:22, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Vatican II and the pontificate of Pope Francis

This article on the Second Vatican Council contains a well-researched section on "Vatican II and the pontificate of Pope Francis". At least half of it is taken verbatim from the Wikipedia article on the Theology of Pope Francis (presumably by the same author). I suggest an account of the connection between Vatican II and Pope Francis belongs in the article on his theology rather than the one on Vatican II. A sentence in the article on Vatican II could refer the reader to the article on his theology, thus avoiding the redundancy we currently have. MDJH (talk) 20:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Single-source rewrite of "Ecumenism"

I noticed the rewrite of "Ecumenism" is all cited to a single source. It would be better to use a multitude of sources while not, for example, implying something no single source is explicit about. Bettering the Wiki (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The current rewrite of the sub-section on Ecumenism is a considerable improvement on the previous version, which consisted in a single sentence without any citation. That's good enough for now. Anyone who wants to find other sources is welcome to do so. MDJH (talk) 05:53, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Rynne 1991, p. 439. + Alberigo

@MDJH:

• the ref "Rynne 1991, p. 439." leads to nowhere. Do you know what this reference is supposed to refer to?
• The following ref has no date to identify it (the author has two books): Alberigo, "IV, The External Climate", The History of Vatican II, vol. 1, p. 404

Veverve (talk) 10:26, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Since no one seems to know what this "Rynne 1991, p. 439." ref refers to, I removed it. Veverve (talk) 06:58, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"2nd vatican" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2nd vatican has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 February 15 § 2nd vatican until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 22:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

"Second Vatican" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Second Vatican has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 February 15 § Second Vatican until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 22:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Potential NPOV violation in introduction

The first paragraph under the "Background" section has no sources, and makes dubious and broad brush claims. It seems therefore to be outside of NPOV, and probably best for somebody to edit or delete. I will refrain from doing so because I am a Wikipedia editing noob. CustodianOfClara (talk) 20:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

As a matter of fact the first three paragraphs of this section have no citation and contain dubious or false claims. CustodianOfClara (talk) 20:36, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Sacred liturgy 103.14.90.130 (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)