Talk:The Democrats (Israel)

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Logo needed for header

Logo needed for header 74.71.4.108 (talk) 18:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

The party was just created today, I doubt there is a logo yet. Wellington Bay (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Color

The Knesset chart on Wikipedia is dominated by blue-colored parties, making it one of the more challenging parliament diagrams to read on the site. While it's common for Israeli parties to incorporate their national flag color into their branding, many of them also use another one as their co-official branding color.

I believe in these cases it makes sense to use that distinctive branding color for clarity's sake. I believe it’s a worthy trade-off if we use red as the main color (in charts, etc.) to represent the new Labor-Meretz alliance/party. 沁水湾 (talk) 19:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Political orientation

Given that Labor was described as centre left to left wing and Meretz as left wing - and given that Yesh Atid is described as centre and National Unity as centre to centre-right, I think it makes sense to place the Democrats as Centre-left to left, particularly given their stated orientation as "the broad home for the liberal democratic public". There is no other "centre left" party in Israel so by default the Democrats fill that niche. Wellington Bay (talk) 19:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Let's just have something generic like "centre-left" for now, given its the (planned) successor to Israel's main centre-left party, but obviously back that up with reliable references as they become available. (I'm not keen on listing two positions in Infoboxes, FWIW.)-- Autospark (talk) 16:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

is labor really left-wing, i think its a recent addition Braganza (talk) 18:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that I oppose the "xxxxx to xxxxx" format and political positions in infoboxes, I support "centre-left", pure and simple. --Checco (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Electoral history of predecessors

Is this really necessary? Wouldn't you just redirect to the original articles for Meretz and Labor? It feels kind of weird since this isn't even a uniquely interesting topic. Totalstgamer (talk) 21:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. It seems out of place in this article. David O. Johnson (talk) 21:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll be deleting it since i think its a pretty clear cut case. If anyone opposes it we can hash it out in the talk page. Totalstgamer (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there's no precedent for it. I can understand the use of the "Predecessor parties/alliances" boxout with the proposed party's 'family tree', but the "Electoral history of predecessors" section, completely no need for it. It isn't the common occurrence on any political party article, as far as I've seen.-- Autospark (talk) 16:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

yeah its too much and too complicated to do it (Rafi, Arab satellites, Maki ect. make it nearly impossible)

the only elections i would understand are the elections starting in 2019 Braganza (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

That feels synthetic though. What's to determine 2019 is the cutoff point? Why not 1996 or 1992 or 1977 for that matter? I think we should omit it entirely Totalstgamer (talk) 16:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

im not saying we *should* i said i would "understand", because its the starting point of election circle Braganza (talk) 17:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it’s totally useful. What was the historic role and political power of the predecessor entities? How quickly did their fortunes fall? Etc? It’s helpful to have a concise illustration of this for newbies to Israeli politics and a clearer illustration for even those who are well-read SecretName101 (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The chart and table might be useful in List of political parties in Israel or Politics of Israel - though if so there should also be a family tree for right wing parties - but it doesn't belong here. Wellington Bay (talk) 14:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there maybe a page about the history of the Israeli Left where this could fit? Totalstgamer (talk) 16:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

maybe Labor Zionism? Braganza (talk) 17:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

But does Meretz fit Labor Zionism? Maybe there's another page that fits. Totalstgamer (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

i would say rather Maki is the problem but yeah

Liberalism in Israel exists so something like left could exist Braganza (talk) 20:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Mapam was a left Labour Zionist party and a descendent of Left Poale Zion which was an offshoot of Poale Zion - the original party of the Labour Zionist movement, Ratz split from the Labour Alignment and was founded by former Labor MK Shulamit Aloni. Shinui had liberal antecedents but it was the smallest component of Meretz and much of Shinui left Meretz and reestablished itself as a separate party. Meretz considered itself social democratic. Wellington Bay (talk) 20:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

As for Maki, if you look at its origins the original Communist Party of Palestine it split from Poale Zion so it is part of the Labour Zionist family tree- though it would help if that were made clearer in the chart. Also, the longtime leader of Maki, Meir Vilner crossed the floor from Mapam in the 50s and was part of a faction that split from Mapam to join Maki. Wellington Bay (talk) 20:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no need to mention the electoral histories of this would-be party's precursor parties. --Checco (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Ideology

To be clear, "liberal democracy" is not a party ideology, "liberalism", "social liberalism", "social democracy", "democratic socialism", etc. are. Also, "progressivism" and "third way" are generic descriptions. Finally, "two-state solution" is a policy, not an ideology. The Democrats would be the merger of the social-democratic and centre-left Labour Party and the democratic-socialist and left-wing Meretz". Why should it be so difficult to describe the would-be party as social-democratic (ideology) and "centre-left" (position) in the infobox? -- Checco (talk) 17:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Liberal democracy is described as an ideology here[1] and it is the only term thus far the party has used to describe itself. The party has not yet identified itself as either social democratic or Labour Zionist, nor has it articulated any social democratic economic policies. That may change but it shouldn't be assumed. Wellington Bay (talk) 17:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that the given source is not particularly authoritative, liberal democracy is mainly a form of government, indeed. It is not used for parties, please believe me—"liberalism" is the ideology used for them. Self-characterisations by parties are not relevant and surely the source is not third-party. --Checco (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

A belief in a form of government is ideological, particularly when that belief is contested. Communism, monarchism, federalism are all forms of government but they are also ideologies - in Canada for instance we have federalist parties and parties that are (Quebec) sovereigntist. Liberalism is a very vague descriptor, more so than progressive. If we just say liberalism is that a reference to economic policy (centre-right) or social policy? Given that this party is explicitly saying it wants to unite the "liberal democratic camp" what do you think "liberal democratic" refers to without any ideological reference? Wellington Bay (talk) 17:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Liberal democracy as a form of governance and social organisation, of course, not liberalism the political ideology. (Even then, it is a self-description, and should not be used in the Infobox.)— Autospark (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I will remove it from the infobox, while adding "social democracy" for which I found an authoritative source. I would possibly keep "labor Zionism", while I would remove "progressivism" (generic, redundant characterisation) and "two-state solution" (policy, political goal, not an ideology)—I will keep them for now. --Checco (talk) 22:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The Jewish Press is not a credible source - it's a far right paper and the headline calls the party "extreme left" which is absurd. Be patient and some credible sources will emerge one way or the other. Wellington Bay (talk) 01:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Labour Zionism has become a dated concept and it remains to be seen if the new party identifies itself or is identified as such. The party will likely fit in the broader modern usage of "social democratic" but until it articulates its economic policy I think its premature to say they are or aren't social democratic. Wellington Bay (talk) 12:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Knesset

Is there any reason why the four Labor MKs haven't yet redesignated as Democrats? Is it just a matter of Knesset bureaucracy or is there a political issue? Wellington Bay (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd wager they just didn't rename their Caucus, or its a bueraucratic thing where the party hasn't been properly formed or registered. Totalstgamer (talk) 18:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Center-left vs left wing

FWIW, the Haaretz article [2] states

"Israel's left-wing parties Labor and Meretz announced they have merged and will now be known as The Democrats." I wasn't misreading the headline. David O. Johnson (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

A subsequent Ha'aretz headline: "Lessons From Netanyahu and Le Pen: How Israel's Center-left Merger Can Halt the Far Right". The term "left wing" is loosely used but given that Labor was generally regarded as centre-left and they dominate the new party (Meretz only has 1 in 4 positions guaranteed), calling the new party left-wing is inaccurate. Wellington Bay (talk) 17:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence of that article says "On Sunday, Israel's left-wing parties Labor and Meretz announced they had joined forces and would now be known as The Democrats.",so it's not as clear cut. David O. Johnson (talk) 19:18, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Which is why I say "left wing" is used loosely. Wellington Bay (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the upcoming primaries and the party's policies in the next Knesset will properly determine whether they're a center-left or left wing party. I'd argue its best to write the party as "center-left to left wing" (the composite stances of its predecessors) and wait before making a more specific distinction. Totalstgamer (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

When two centre-left parties merge, the result is a centre-left party. When two social-democratic parties merge, the result is a social-democratic party. I really do not understand why we should not classify this party simply with "social democracy" as ideology and "centre-left" as position. --Checco (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Centre-left? Here's why it might be wrong

This is gonna be a little long, so TL;DR:

There is no substantial evidence that "The Democrats" (an Israeli political party) should be classified as centre-left. European and American journalists often label "The Democrats" as centre-left, but this designation usually reflects their own countries' political frameworks or is directly sourced from this article without a deep understanding of Israeli politics.

I will address several key points:

• Why "The Democrats" do not meet essential criteria for being classified as centre-left according to widely accepted definitions on Wikipedia page centre-left.
• Why (In my opinion), labeling them as centre-left can be misleading for those trying to understand Israeli politics.
• How party members and the official constitution document do not claim a centre-left identity, but instead align with left-wing (socialist) ideology.
• How the Israeli public perceives "The Democrats", its members, and its foundational principles as left-wing.
• The continued prominence of socialist values within "The Democrats."
• How the current source provided to prove that The Democrats is a centre-left political party, probably do not prove it

You can reply with your thoughts on this situation | Note: I’m not trying to impose my view, and I understand that people have different opinions on this topic.

---

The Israeli political spectrum is quite different from the one in the US and Europe. (shifted and corrupted in 2018–2022 Israeli political crisis, 2020–2021 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu, 2023 Israeli judicial reform protests, Israel–Hamas war, 2024 Israeli protests) - sources: read 1, read 2, read 3, read 4, read 5, read 6, read 7, read 8 (explaining the shift in politics)

Based on what I’ve read about the party and the sources I’ve referenced and will reference, I believe the ideology of the Democratic Party should be considered left rather than centre-left.

now, here's why that:

• What is centre-left? According to the wikipedia article on centre-left: "Centre-left politics are contrasted with far-left politics that reject capitalism or advocate revolution." this is nothing like The Democrats Party. Golan have said harsh statements that, in the past, were never made by any Israeli leftist (let alone centre-left) about the Israeli illegal occupation and settlements and was punished because of that. (Holocaust Day speech). Members of his party also reject capitalism (will elaborate on the next points) and joined the 2024 Israeli protests that some would call revolutionary and opposed by a big portion of the public (source, source, source).
• There is already a centre-left party, or at least seen like such: Yesh Atid with Yair Lapid who supports a Two-state solution (source, two-state solution is seen as left in israel) and is liberal in his values. Yesh Atid was admitted to the Liberal International as well. (source), but most importantly, left-wing voters voted for Yesh Atid (source)
• Yair Golan (Meretz), Gilad Kariv (HaHavoda), Naama Lazimi (HaHavoda), and Efrat Rayten (HaHavoda) are all from the left. They never claimed they were centre-left. (checked in google in Hebrew: 1, 2, 3, 4). Yair Golan claimed he's a leftist himself (source - he), and Gilad Kariv did so too (source - he)
• The Israeli public sees Yair Golan, the rest of the members of his party as of now, HaHavoda and Meretz (the parties that united to "The Democrats") and "The Democrats" as left. (Hebrew wiki page, 1, 2, 3, 4, source HaHavoda being left - he, source Meretz being left)
• HaHavoda constitution document (still being used in the website of "The Democrats" in the text "חוקת המפלגה" ") has many and only left-wing ideas. (member rights, labor bodies, farmer group, unions, on pages 30-33 and pages 37-40).
• Figures like Lazimi and Rayten are socialist. Lazimi is a socialist leaning (source - hebrew) supported Mapai actions (source - he, source - he) and she supported socialist struggle (source - hebrew). Rayten is a socialist leaning (source - he). she supported minimum wage (source - he) and she passed laws in favour of Israeli national insurence budgets (source - he).
• Majority of members of The Democrats on social media and the party itself, define themselves as left.

Most important perhaps:

• I believe that even the Haaretz article cited doesn’t provide solid evidence to label the party as ‘center-left.’ The article simply mentions that the party could potentially merge with the Israeli ‘centre-left,’ mainly because in Israel, leftists are a minority and are underrepresented in the Knesset (source)

Just in regards to your point about Yesh Atid being "centre left" - being in the Liberal International does not make a party centre left or even centrist. Liberalism is a heterodox term and many member of the Liberal International are actually cente right or right such as the Free Democratic Party (Germany), Fianna Fail in Ireland, the Swedish Liberals, to name a few. In Israel the Likud started out as an alliance between Herut and the Israeli Liberal Party. Wellington Bay (talk) 11:19, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for telling me. אקסינו (talk) 11:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The starting point for the Democrats is as a merger of centre-left Labor and (arguably) left Meretz so describing them as centre-left to left is fair. It's too early to tell where they'll end up, especially as they haven't yet issued a policy platform. At this point saying they are not centre-left but left is purely speculative. Remember three-quarters of the party is Labor and Labor has in the past zig-zagged opportunistically. Wellington Bay (talk) 12:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, I have seen no material in which the Democrats identify themselves as socialist or social democratic or in which they assert socialist policies (and these days social democratic is considered centre-left, in any case. See the German Social Democrats or the British Labour Party, for example.) Wellington Bay (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Tagging accounts and addresses that have interacted with the article within the past 90 days.: @Wellington Bay @David O. Johnson @Number 57 @2a10:8012:21:f5f7:a5f3:f7a1:90eb:17f1 @2600:1017:b81d:e90b:f84d:b5ff:fe6d:4165 @NotRedFox @Totalstgamer @Checco @Askhaiz אקסינו (talk) 08:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

None of the points listed in the first part of this section are relevant to how Wikipedia describes the party – how the party describes itself, how party members describe themselves, how the public perceives the party or what policies it claims to follow are not how we define it. The only thing that matters as far as Wikipedia is concerned is how the party is described in reliable sources. The Labour Party in the UK still defines itself as a "democratic socialist party" but no-one could seriously claim it is a left-wing party anymore. Number 57 15:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)