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The Signpost: 14 August 2024

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* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Persistent disruptive editing at Talk:Epistemology

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Please stop your disruptive editing.

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Talk:Epistemology, you may be blocked from editing. Please review WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. Wikipedia is not an appropriate venue in which to ponder the reorganization of a philosophical field. You are obviously a thoughtful and knowledgeable editor, but seemingly interminable talk page objections to seemingly every edit only gets in the way of making Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. No one wants you to be sanctioned, but, please, make a more serious effort to be constructive by presenting more concise and concrete suggestions for improvement (or other actionable items) when you post to talk pages—as you have already been asked on multiple occassions. Thank you, Patrick (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice in your page that your domain of interest in Wikipedia is philosophy and thus you have a personal interest on the matter. People that comes here should know that. Every thing I wrote in the PdD of Epistemology should have been useful. It is sad that it was not, but that was not entirely on my control. In any case, I am taking very seriously what you say and it was my intention anyway to address the issue from a larger perspective. Dominic Mayers (talk) 05:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for being so gracious in your receipt of this notification. I do believe that your knowledge, insight, and care for nuanced scholarly distinctions make you exceptionally well-qualified to contribute to Wikipedia on such daunting topics as epistemology. It's just that, as you have to know, the debates you stage on talk pages frequently exasperate and exhaust other editors, and so drive them away from further, more immediately productive discussion.
As to me, yes, I became seriously interested in editing Wikipedia only when I set out to overhaul the dismal article on Hegel, and I rarely make major edits to articles unrelated to philosophy. However, at least as it is currently practiced, I have extremely limited interest in epistemology. (Give me Merleau-Ponty instead, any time!) So I don't believe I have a horse in the race in how this article turns out, however provisionally, at the end of this round of edits and discussions.
Finally, you might consider that your efforts to attain a "larger perspective" may actually be the underlying problem. This objective seems to not infrequently set you at odds with Wikipedia policy and guidelines—and so, inevitably, with other editors.
Are you by chance working on a monograph? If not, you might consider it alongside contributions to Wikipedia that are based upon currently existing high-quality sources. I'd read it! And it would be a more effective way of evolving the conversation, which might then trickle down, uncontroversially, to Wikipedia.
That's it from me, at least for now, in terms of totally unsolicited advice –
Cheers, Patrick (talk) 06:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I notice that, not only your main interest is philosophy, but you have collaborated with the wikipedian that refuses to discuss my criticisms and is inclined to see them as perturbations. Also, your accusation that I wish to ponder the reorganization of a philosophical field, besides being false—on the contrary, I wish that we present the actual organization of the field, not change it—shows that you are personally concerned about the details of the issue. You try to present yourself as disinterested, but obviously you are not. Those who come here should also be aware of that. Yet, I take what you say seriously, because one cannot ignore the visions of others, especially not in Wikipedia. You are right, a few people having the vision that I am perturbing their project is enough to be blocked. This is so sad, but it is the way it is. Dominic Mayers (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did collaborated with @Phlsph7 to bring philosophy up to GA status, and I'm proud of that work, for which they deserve the lion's share of the credit. We have also, however, clashed over philosophical and editorial matters, as for instance here. So please leave off with the aspersions.
If you have a good source supporting your view of the field, please present it on the article talk page. But please be aware that you appear to be attempting to conduct a research project to outline the field in a way that does not exist in the literature. And it does not help that you appear to be doing the same thing at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:%C3%89pist%C3%A9mologie in a similarly disruptive way. Patrick (talk) 16:12, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I said what I have to say. I am not interested to pursue this discussion where I am falsely accused. But, I suppose it is your honest vision. So, it is sad. Dominic Mayers (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: This objective [a larger perspective] seems to not infrequently set you at odds with Wikipedia policy and guidelines... Which policy and guidelines did I violate? I do not see that. I understand that there is an approach perhaps used by a majority of wikipedians that consist in fixing the subject and scope of an article by selecting a few sources and follow them, in particular to determine the core concepts to present in the article. This is fine in itself, but it becomes problematic when it is done too fanatically, as if the sources (which represent a relatively old culture and tradition, perhaps 50 years old or so) had no context, no history, etc. and that we should follow what they say, basically make Wikipedia a platform for this culture or tradition, while rejecting a larger perspective that is factual, interesting, pertinent and verifiable in other sources. I believe that, on the contrary, my approach is more in line with the fundamental spirit of Wikipedia that wants to allow collaboration between different cultures and traditions. Dominic Mayers (talk) 07:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You routinely challenge WP:VERIFIABLE claims cited to high-quality WP:RELIABLESOURCES based upon a tendentious interpretation of WP:NPOV in a way that makes it extremely difficult for other editors to improve even an article that you yourself insist upon littering with maintenance tags, which are not intended to be used as a long-term statement of your opinion about an article (e.g., [1]). Patrick (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Patrick Welsh: Thank you for raising this issue. I have been contemplating for a while on how to best address the problems with Dominic's behavior.
@Dominic Mayers: There are several issues with your behavior.
  • Various editors have pointed out that you keep misusing maintenance tags. All the maintenance tags you recently added to the article led to endless discussions. The result in each case was a consensus to remove the tag without any change.
  • You keep writing walls of text that often fail to address the main concern. For example, you present a personal opinion that is false. Another editor points this out by presenting sources that contradict your view. They ask for a source that would support your view, but you respond with more walls of text without presenting a source to back your personal opinion.
  • The misunderstandings seem to concern not only the field of epistemology but also Wikipedia guidelines, like your claim that WP:NPOV applies not just to significant views published in reliable sources but to any view.
  • You cast WP:ASPERSIONS by falsely saying that I refuse to discuss your criticisms and by falsely claiming that the global issue is that I'm not genuine in the discussions.
These problems have been going on for quite a while now without any indications that your behavior would change. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I explained to Patrick, I do not wish to try further "discuss" with you and you can edit Epistemology as you wish, because you only state that I am disturbing and you never really replied to my points. You present a list of sources that represent the field and you think that you are allowed to follow them, without having to take a perspective, because they represent the field. I disagree that it is a valid procedure. For example, I still think that the statement "is a major branch" even if it is verifiable is not saying anything informative, except that the partisans of the field think it is a major branch, and we should favor content that is meaningful. If you think it is meaningful and says something important, it is only because you consider that the sources are so important that we can follow them and take side with them. In contrast, I accept that attitude for science or for simple facts, but never for philosophy. So, I think it says nothing interesting, just an opinion of the partisans, but that we could make it interesting by explaining it more, the history of it, etc. I have the right to this opinion and it is as important than the opposite opinion that the sentence is pertinent and useful for the readers. The fact that it is verifiable does not prove that my opinion is wrong and the opposite opinion is correct. So, there was no genuine discussion at all regarding this issue. Again, I disagree, but I will not discuss further and do whatever you want with Epistemology. Dominic Mayers (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You say I challenge WP:VERIFIABLE claims, but that is not a violation of anything. It's perfectly fine to do that. Stating such an important rule in the context of an accusation, makes it look as if I am breaking that rule. This is not a rational way to communicate. You say it is a tendentious interpretation of NPOV, but that does not allow me to further discuss, because you do not discuss my points. It is only a way to dismiss my points without discussing, as it as happened in the talk page. I have enough of this. This is recorded in my history and I will use it at some point. I do not wish to further "discuss" with you. Do whatever you want with Epistemology I am not interested to contribute on an article when genuine discussion is not possible. Dominic Mayers (talk) 16:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I took note of the points made. I take your attitude toward me seriously and respect that you see me that way even though it is sad. I am going to act accordingly. I still disagree with the approach used in the article and don't think a good article will result from it. Nevertheless, I will not further intervene in Epistemology, because I am not doing that kind of fight. I genuinely hoped that a discussion would be possible in a positive mindset. I now erase this discussion, because there is no need to further discuss. Dominic Mayers (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

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The Signpost: 4 September 2024

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