Actually Ceallach, most people I know who get their sons circumcised aren’t doing it for religious regions but rather to make life easier for themselves.. no foreskin = no need to worry about thoroughly cleaning it to prevent infections. I personally have not chosen to mutilate my son in that way, but if in the future he needs one for medical reasons, he will get one. And I know quite a few older boys who get them for just that reason.

What a poor understanding of religion. Thank you anti-religion for communism. Thanks to all athiests for their attitude as intolerant as religious fundamentalists. Thanks for the only way to support the unfortunate with inefficient taxation. Thanks for being anti-charity. And lastly thanks for for being a descendant of monkeys and not understand greater evolution.

Sorry I think I meant to attach this to the next comment below.

@ Boomer

Stop being a whingy c*nt. No one is mentioning your narrow minded religion at all, yet you still feel the need to crawl out of the woodwork for some sanctimonious finger wagging as wel las setting up some ridiculous straw men. Shut up and get back on your knees. There are jesus points to be scored.

We had our 3 boys circumcised for religious reasons when they each were a week old. My husband himself was circumcised when he was in his early 20s for medical reasons and he said that his quality of life had diminished in no way since he had it done. That was the reason why in the end I agreed - religious beliefs or not.  When baby number 4 arrived our religious convictions weren’t as strong but we would’ve gone through with the circumcision so the last one wasn’t going to stick out among his brothers. Number 4 was a girl, so the subject was obsolete.

That said, it was never an issue that both of us were going to pay for it and also share all the other costs that were incurred from raising the children BOTH of us put into this world together.

We only have one doctor in a 4 hour radius who is willing to perform this procedure so we couldn’t complain much about the increase in cost close to $200 between baby one and baby three. But even after that increase is wasn’t more than $280 for the entire procedure. Makes me wonder if those doctors in the States are uing a gold scalpel to do it.

@boomer, get off your religious high horse and do some research before regurgitating propaganda!!

Firstly, atheists and those that believe in evolution (and have bothered to learn about it at all) know that we have not evolved from monkeys, rather we have evolved from a common ancestor.

Secondly: “Thanks for being anti-charity”, bollocks!!!

Non-religious charities:

Red Cross
Amnesty International
Doctors without Borders
The Gates Foundation
UNICEF
Fred Hollows Foundation
Lifeline
RSPCA
Child fund Australia
Save the Children
Engineers without Borders
Marie Stopes foundation
Learn for Life Foundation Australia
The Global Poverty Project
......the list goes on and on......

Liz, the health care system in the US is so screwed with absolutely zero accountability, so the doctors can charge whatever they want and the insurance companies then pay.

Met a guy in the US who needed some warts frozen off. Went to a non-approved doctor, and it’d cost $20, go to his work doctor, who would have the expenses covered by insurance and it was $800, no joke! He went with the $800, but that’s because he didn’t have to pay in the end, with insurance.

Circumcision should absolutely not be a personal choice. An adult can choose to be circumcised if he wishes, but he can’t choose not to be if it was already done. Freedom of religion is great, but it is somebody else’s religion. I don’t follow my parents’ religion, and I’m sure a great many other people don’t either. This should categorically be illegal, and you have a responsiblity to stand up to your husband given you know better than having this done.

Hi TtT,
There are non-religious reasons to circumcise too. My eleven-month-old has had four cases of foreskin infection, apparently because the opening in the foreskin is extremely small (so not a hygiene issue, I asked!). Our paediatrician is recommending we get him circumcised, and after seeing the pain he has gone through with his infections, I’m ok with it. I want this done before he’s old enough to remember it happening too - an additional reason to do it when they’re babies.

Actually many men are circumsised, including myself. it is a matter of hygene not just religion (i’m not religious) in fact many countries offer cirumcision for free in the interest of hygene as the layer under the foreskin often harbours an accumulation of secretions, excretions (urine), dead cells and growths of bacteria, an area containing a higher number of circumcised men also see’s a decrease in stds and sti’s. genetic mutilation indeed!! Ladies if your man is circumcised you should be happy.

Further on religion. I’m not very religious. My wife is in a consistent way although casual and it certainly made her what she is - one the most caring considerate people I know. And generally mind dead senseless attack on others is red rag to a bull to me. If you want to be atheist fine. But it used to be a saying ... live and let live. Kids used top leave school at 12 etc but they used to know a lot more then.

Exactly. Don’t be outraged at the cost...be outraged because this man wants to CUT OFF PART OF YOUR SON’S PENIS. “I can’t really argue” is bullshit… if you were the father of a baby girl and the mother wanted to cut half her clit off, would you say “oh well I don’t have one of those so I guess it’s OK”?

I know people who circumcised their sons for entirely non-religious reasons.

Get over it.

Why do we say it’s ok to pierce little girls’ ears - a purely cosmetic procedure - but say it’s not ok to circumcise little boys - a procedure of religious significance to some, and has been shown to have some health benefits (which is why others do it).

Please note I have no intention of circumcising my sons, if I have any, and am not a proponent of circumcision. I just don’t see that it is so bad we should ban others from choosing to have it done.

Yes, I thought it was a pretty poor comparison as well.

Yeah blame religion, your so awesome.
Why dont we also blame the Jews and hygene while we are at it.
Did she say it was a religious decision, no she didnt, said her husband was being a prat about it (love that word). Seems morons seem to fall on religion for things they dont like. I dont like cabbage, dont see me blaming religion for it. I am not a religious person i just get sick of people blaming it for their own issues.

The whole ‘yours, mine and ours’ thing is a whole other issue and makes me wonder what kind of marriage your son is going to grow up watching. I’m with Tim on the genital mutilation issue… I’m not sure that the fact your husband has a penis means he should get the final say on this. Here’s a thought - maybe you could let your son decide for himself (and pay for it if he wants it).
There is a great show called Bullsh*t that ran a whole episode on circumcision and it made me sick to my stomach.

If your husband wants to mutilate your son’s penis, he should pay for it; especially if you don’t want it.
I know some men have to get it done for medical reasons and that is ok, but otherwise it should be the choice of the boy when he is old enough to make a decision (16 or 18) whether or not he wants that.
It isn’t as if circumcision is ‘now or never’

@leah… did u actually compare getting someones ears pierced to removing foreskin from a penis??? its not even the same if piercing an ear required removing the entire ear lobe, let alone just putting a minute hole through it. circumcision is genital mutilation. period. sometimes it is necessary, thats totally fine for those cases. but as a standard procedure for every baby boy? thats horrible.

Are there really that many people that think circumcision is necessary for cleanliness reasons?
I’m pretty sure we’ve had running water in this country for a while now, do you people not shower regularly or something?
I always make sure I’m extra clean, which sometimes leads to having to start again but that’s another issue.

Unless your son has an existing problem, you are subjecting them to uneccessary surgery which carries it’s own risks.

Scott - matter of hygene? He’s an idea....how about men clean it?  Pull the skin back and clean it.  Anyone who doesn’t do that is pure laziness or lack of sufficient parenting.

Yes, there *are* non-religious reasons to circumcise, and there are reasons that don’t involve the “I had it done, and so my son will too” argument - but they aren’t real reasons.  Why do I say this?  Well, the health risks of not being circumcised, in the modern world, are negligible.  With a tiny tiny tiny bit of hygiene, they don’t exist.  7000 years ago, when the “thou shalt circumcise your son” law came into effect, yes, it was a bigger issue, and hence the “godly degree”.  Like most biblical rules, it had a grounding in social control (don’t eat pigs, god says so - when in reality it was because pigs carried a lot more dangerous parasites than other livestock).  And people were much more likely to follow a rule because “you’ll burn in hell if you don’t” than because “it’s better for your health”.

Now if you want to compare circumcision to another medical procedure, I’d suggest getting your ears pierced is not really a good comparison.  It’s completely reversible, there’s no actual surgery, and you are not modifying their bodies at all.  A better comparison would be removing the appendix or tonsils at birth - both very simple operations which have a PROVEN health benefit, reducing the risk of tonsillitis and appendicitis to zero.  Yet these are not done, but circumcisions (with dubious health benefits) are?  The reason is simple, you don’t perform unnecessary surgery.  But for some reason, circumcision is the exception, and if you think the reasoning is anything but (a) religion, or (b) parents who want their kids the same as their dad, you’re fooling yourself.

Cherry you should get a better doctor, I had a relative with foreskin infections as an infant, turns out because the parents were cleaning it TOO MUCH! The opening was also small but they were able to surgically loosen that without circumcision. It’s meant to be small in infants anyway.

“There are non-religious reasons to circumcise too.”

Hi Cherry, yes, you’re right there are some medical reasons for it, and absolutely agree it’s right to go ahead in those cases.  Those are in the minority of reasons why most people have their children undergo the procedure though.

Andrew I agree with just about every word you said.... except would add one point, because there is one other reason why a parent would circumcise their son.

Family history of medical problems.

Yup, I’ve heard someone tell me this was why they circumcised. Because daddy had it done later in life due to medical problems, as did grand-daddy. So they just cut to the chase (excuse the pun). Seems a perfectly legit reason to me.

@ Andrew. There certainly are other reasons! I work as a scrub/scout nurse in operating theatres at a childrens hospital. I see so many older boys (between 3 and 12 years mostly) who have to get it done for medical reasons (I am talking multiple lists of cases, multiple days a week) . I decided to have both my boys circumcised as infants because I didn’t want to risk them being one of the many I see - poor things having to explain to their friends why they have been off school for a week. When they get it done as infants they cry for about 5 minutes and that is the end of it. Once they reach a certain age - around 6 months old - the procedure becomes a lot more complicated and involves going under general anaesthetic, which of course, no parent would do unless it was absolutely necessary.

And to the whole “let them decide for themselves when they grow up” argument, that’s just ridiculous. Circumcised men think they are the best, and non-circumcised men think they are the best. It all depends on what you have grown up with.

There is no comparison between male and female circumcision. When a man’s foreskin is snipped off he is still able to experience pleasure and sensations. Cutting off a woman’s clitoris is markedly different.

It’s not that bad. Certainly no worse that other non-anaesthetic procedures taken for granted today:
- Laser eye surgery
- Piercings (ears, nose belly and...other)

As for OP, pay half, send the cheque, and advise hubby to do the same .

Then sit down with him and actually talk some of this stuff through. Circumcision is just one of many decisions you will both have to grow up and deal with as part of raising a child. If you don’t sort out your personal trust and financial issues soon, one of them will blow up into a divorce. ... and the timer starts....

...now.

Or even just make him watch videos on YouTube or anti-circ sites. Hell, even the pro-circ videos are awful, if you have a heart and don’t buy into the BS about babies not feeling pain.

GARBAGE! It is that bad. There is no need for it in a child who will be bathing regularly and have access to education as a teenager on how to protect themselves from diseases.

Circumcision removes THREE QUARTERS of the most sensitive skin of the penis. Men who are for this who’ve already had it done as babies can NOT give a fair opinion - they have never known what they lost.

Grow up and say no. Say calmly and clearly that you won’t do it. Many countries are turning this into a crime and with good reason. It is cruel and unnecessary. Why are you talking about the cost? Are you trying to pretend that if hubby pays for it, then it wasn’t your fault, or something?

If your husband had an arm missing, would you cut baby’s off too, so that he’s the same as Daddy? It’s real simple to explain why he’s different.  “When Daddy was a boy people thought it was a good idea. Now we know there’s no need.”

LOVE YOUR SON… he has nobody to defend him. It’s your job.

“There are many benefits for it, including cleanliness, less chance of contracting HIV, and one against it - loss of sensation, which my mates tell me is a load of crap.. Up to you both in the end, personally I agree with your hubby, you can’t always see ‘dirty’, but you sure can smell it…”

The cleanliness issue relates to a time long ago when people showered less and live in sandier climates.  It probably still holds true a little but only if you’re not cleaning properly.

The less chance of contracting HIV bit is the true load of crap.  The fact is the reduction in chance is bordering on 5% or less whereas STI checks and condom can reduce it by almost 100%.  The other fact is that most HIV transmission isn’t through having sex but through incorrect use of needles (for drugs).  Being circumsized won’t save you when you still get infected (and you’re stupid if you think it helps you at all).

“which my mates tell me” Clearly a first hand account there.  It’s also different for each person and can’t be undone (but can be done later in life as you clearly state).

OP, if your child doesn’t get it done but decides later he wants it done then he won’t hate you, he’ll just get it done.  If you do have it done and he doesn’t like it then he’ll hate you forever.

Agree with Matt on the communication issue. Big warning bells go off for me on that OP.

And as for you having to pay for the costs of the baby.... Did he not want it? Is it the result of an affair?? Or is he just the worlds biggest Pratt??? Babies are the product of a relationship (usually) and as such deserve the support of BOTH parents.

OP if I were you I’d *conveniently* forget to send in the deposit, and when he arcs up tell him innocently “but I thought YOU were doing that part, since you were so keen on the idea”.... Otherwise go with Bossy’s suggestion, she’s the boss after all

Re the circumcision issue: My eldest son is circumcised, my younger two boys arent. The eldest has never had any problems, the middle one has had LOTS of them - and the youngest ‘a few’.

I did ask for my middle son to be circumcised but the doc (a different one from the first time) refused point blank, stating that if I asked them to cut off any other part of my son they’d have me done for child abuse.

I didnt bother asking with my youngest. But I do wish they’d circumcised my middle son, he’s autistic and anosmic and has enough issues without foreskin infections and issues with retraction....

I’ve seen several boys (nephews, step son in law, etc) require circumcision later in life and it is a very unpleasant op for them.

My step SIL actually had his foreskin split at an intimate moment - which my partner was called in to help with due to the copious amounts of blood and freaked out couple not knowing what to do! A teenage boy doesnt like seeing his manhood split in half, as such, and my partner learned far more about his daughters bf than he wanted to know that night!!

In a nutshell OP, I do believe in circumcision but thats only my opinion: you’re entitled to yours. Your hubby is being incredibly pedantic about the baby, I think you have bigger issues than just a decision on circumcision. Is he violent? Are you scared for your (and the baby’s) safety if you dont comply with his every demand?

I’d be going to a counsellor, alone and/or with him, if I were you. Your baby son is only going to make things worse - and grow up like his dad (and miserable in a tense household), potentially, if you dont start working on the dictatorship your marriage appears to be.....

What the hell is the point of marriage when one person dictates everything that you can and cant do?? 

This might be another positive for guys to get it done.....

My ex husband was un circumcised. My boyfriend is circumcised. I used to think it doesnt make a difference to what happens in the bedroom, but its a lot easier to give oral when the man is circumcised and an uncircumcised penis can be smelly after a day out and about.
So..... it makes it more enjoyable to do, making it likely to occur more often

The “less chance of an STD” thing is far from a proven fact. If you read those studies (you know, in a proper medical journal, not in the web), you’d note that while they do tend to find a link between circumcision and lower STI/HIV rates, they also note that sociologically, higher rates of circumcision tend to occur in areas with higher rates of devout Judeao-Christian belief. There may be other social factors at work there, perhaps a greater social norm toward monogamy, or better access to health services, or lower rates of drug use. Maybe not, too, but it’s not possible on current evidence to make a causative connection between having the snip and STIs.

Regarding the loss of sensation - I assume this doesn’t mean complete loss but reduced… how on earth would anyone even know the answer to that? It’s not like they’d have anything to go by if it’s done as a baby.

If your penis is smelly after a day.... THEN BLOODY WASH IT. IMO saying its cleaner etc is just an excuse for terrible personal hygiene, and i for one would prefer a man who washes his bits carefully over one that is circumcised and ‘clean’.

Also if you think being circumcised is going to help reduce the amount of STI’s and HIV infection, you are dreaming. Ever heard of safe sex and condoms? Another terrible excuse to be lazy and unsafe.

I really don’t give 2 hoots if a man is circumcised or not, but these 2 excuses about being clean and STI prevention IMHO are just plain stupid. Excuses for bad habits and laziness!

Also i think ever person should have the right to choose whether they have their foreskin removed, ears pierced, arms tattooed etc etc. It’s their body NOT YOURS! Therefore personally if my baby is a boy i will let him choose himself when he is old enough to decide; unless there is a underlying medical condition which would require circumcision of course.

There is a high concentration of virus receptors on the foreskin, so the ‘less chance of contracting HIV’ is actually a proven fact. There’s also less chance of passing on HPV (Human papilloma virus - the one that can cause cervical cancer) and other viruses to your partners.

My boyfriend had to be circumcised at 4 years old due to problems with it. He’s from Germany, and his mum told me she freaked out when the doctor here told her that’s what needed to be done (due to the obvious implications of circumcision in Germany). I’m certainly glad it was done! As someone else mentioned - giving oral is so much more pleasant when a guy is circumcised.

If I have sons in the future I will be pushing to get them done.

Matt, I don’t know where you heard that this gives you less chance of contracting HIV but I can tell you right now that’s a load of BS.  Seriously, if you think that’s all you need to protect yourself I’m surprised you’ve not caught it already.

As for the hygeine issue, how about not being lazy and cleaning yourself properly?  If you did it wouldn’t be an problem!

And it’s so much better to have a circumcision as an adult because the foreskin splits every time one has an erection. 

Women have absolutely no right to even comment on the subject of circumcision.

Where are you reading about this “severe and painful” procedure?  I have seen it first hand and I think you are being taken for a ride.  There are some medical advantages for having it done and even more advantages for having it done young.  Yes, like any medical procedure, there are risks. FYI the way it is done these days there is typically no anaesthetic only some panadol if required.

Shane what a load of shit!
“because the foreskin splits every time one has an erection.” That’s utter BS and you clearly have no foreskin to make such a comment

As for the cleanliness argument - end of the day if you don’t clean any part of your body it is going to “smell” and infection is possible.

Some people get “athletes foot”, does that mean we should cut off their toes?

Circumcision is outdated and is not neccessary unless there are complications that require it (which is probably less than than 1% of the time)

Sorry there’s no good enough reason in the world that I could use to justify multilating my baby.

Shane, so a mother cant say “no dont do that to my kid”? Bugger that. Thankfully my partner has a brain (and a clean foreskin)and can see there isn’t a good reason.

Sure if they get infections, let them have a general anaesthetic and get it done later on, but as a baby, with a local anaesthetic that does not remove all the pain (ask nurses who have seen it done! or watch some youtubes, I had to turn them off) there’s no way im doing it.

Shane, I have a foreskin and have had an erection or two in my 46 years but never had one tear or foreskin issue - including STIs or cleanliness. There is more junk between the toes than a washed and cleaned foreskin.

@Shane

Your foreskin splits? I must say that hasn’t happened to me before. Perhaps you are the odd one out =] I wouldn’t trade my foreskin for anything… neither would I be parted with my little toe, fingernails, eyebrows, ear lobes or any other part of my body that I was born with, unless I was given a damn good reason.

@Shane - Mate I don’t know what is wrong with your penis, but my foreskin doesn’t split every time I get an erection. That would only occur if something is wrong with it. I suggest you go see a urologist mate.

For the record I have no preference. I’m uncircumcised as my dad was, I’ve never had an infection. Asthetically circumcised probably looks better, but my skin mostly sits behind the glans anyway, so its much the same. I don’t see the point in getting the snip, its there for a reason after all, but I don’t oppose people who get their kid the snip.

Only recently the head of the Australian Medical Association said their view on infant circumcision was different to his.

OK you geniuses, for a start I didn’t say anything like every person who has a foreskin experiences splitting of the skin when having an erection.

As for the other geniuses who haven’t experienced it I’d have to say that you are right, you haven’t.  That does not mean it doesn’t happen though.

If you’re smart enough to type at a blog you should be smart enough to google something really difficult like “split foreskin”

Go on, give it a go, I dare you.

My uncle nearly died when he had it done as a baby (bled almost to death), my mother (who is a doctor) clearly remembered this when forming her opinion of it.

My brother ended up having it done in his twenties after a medical condition that required it however myself and my other brother survived fine. Typically boys are mutilated to discourage masturbation (it makes it harder to do).

There’s no reason why it can’t be done later in life, and more safely, if there becomes a reason to do so. Almost no one gets these infections, circumcision to prevent them is like removing all women’s breasts to prevent breast cancer (which is significantly more common).

The good professor certainly does not use scientific language on his website. He refers to arguments counter to his own with upside language ‘eg costs of having this done later are often over ‘ compared with ‘less than $300 as an infant’. Of course it’s cheaper as an infant, a large part of this is due to the lack of care taken on infants, because it’s seen as easier there are less resources on hand if something goes wrong, death is an option. He’s also very carefully picking certain studies (in which, by his admission those from lower socio economic backgrounds are also playing the role of uncircumcised, polluting the results), and even in those a non-trivial number of infants being circumcised require a blood transfusion. Guess what that does to all the health benefits and your risk of HIV? Can you imagine, a tiny reduction in the chance of something happening by being careless as an adult in exchange for a much higher risk of HIV as an infant?

Who really wants to take risks with their child’s health as an infant without their consent?

And lets be honest, I’ve never heard of a single uncircumcised male being pro circumcising their children.

Yeah yeah, we get it. You don’t approve.

Sure - but then they should both be paying half for everything. In the letter the OP says she’s having to pay for everything baby-related and this is why he thinks she should stump up for the procedure. I don’t think OP refusing to pay is necessarily the right thing to do either - but her husband is being a total flog not paying for anything to do with the baby and forcing separate finances through his penny-counting, AND on top of everything else, insisting on a procedure for the baby his wife doesn’t want without discussing it properly.

Maybe her criteria for a husband extended beyond the penis?

So true…

BaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa. Gold.

“...remind him that you are not Mary, and that your baby did not result from an immaculate conception.”

Love this part!!!!
Think I’ll be using it as well in future

should a decent wife be ashamed to have her husband pay for everything???
and also its funny that i NEVER hear women say this quote below when its a custody battle or something:
“that you are not Mary, and that your baby did not result from an immaculate conception.”
it seems many women do not understand this concept. even on this blog there are always a million posts about how men shouldnt have a voice when it comes to abortion etc.

Beautifully put and 100% correct!

Actually, Ethel, the Immaculate Conception was Mary’s conception. “Immaculate” as in without original sin. I weep for your ignorance!

“paid” in point 3 should be “made”

Good call Chunks.  Found this bit of data:

Data from the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) indicates that while up to 60 per cent of the male population underwent neonatal circumcision in the 1950s and 1960s, as little as 10 to 20 per cent of the male population is circumcised in Australia today: infant male circumcision rates sit at around 5 per cent in Victoria and South Australia, 7 per cent in Western Australia, 25 per cent in NSW and about 35 per cent in Queensland.

There has to be a reason why so few are now getting it done.  Then there was this:

Large-scale trials of circumcision in African countries have shown circumcised, heterosexual men are 60 per cent less likely to become infected with HIV than their uncircumcised counterparts.

Sounds like a good idea.  IF YOU ARE MOVING TO AFRICA!  Then there is this from one of the RCAP chiefs:

“But if you say we want to have it done because it looks nicer or we want [our son] to be the same as his father, that’s cosmetic surgery on an infant who doesn’t have a choice. I don’t think that’s logical, and I don’t think it’s ethical.”

Food for thought.

Not really sure why praying on the Torah would help. Not even sure why you think the husband is doing it all day and night either.
Oh! Are you inferring he’s Jewish?
So they should pray to sort out the marriage issue? Or pray to sort out the money issue? I’m confused. You’re comment isn’t clear about the advice, only that you believe the husband is a Jew and you believ he is quite a strict Jew.

My advice is caveat emptor.

*like*

Actually, what shocks me more about this letter is that neither parent have considered the CHILD in all of this. It’s the money and because daddy is cut.  No mention of concern that the baby is going to have a bit of skin lopped off for purely cosmetic reasons. I pity the kid.

Geebus… cut penises are boring anyway. Any girl worth her salt in the bedroom knows a few tricks with that extra bit of skin to blow her lover’s socks clean off.  There’s nothing dirty about foreskin either - that’s just fear-mongering by a group of lazy-arsed parents who can’t be bothered cleaning their babies properly.