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TONY JONES: At the end of this week, Australia's Ambassador to Washington, Michael Thawley, steps down after five years in the job. He's presided over a momentous time in the US-Australia relationship - a strengthening of defence ties, the development of a free trade agreement and an unprecedented closeness to the alliance. The Howard Government is yet to announce his replacement. Ambassador Thawley has kept a very low profile during his reign, but he has a reputation as an extremely effective operator and networker behind the scenes. So effective in fact, that President Bush himself hosted a farewell for the Ambassador in the oval office. A rare honour. As he prepares to leave Washington, the media-shy Ambassador Thawley spoke exclusively to the ABC's North America correspondent, Leigh Sales. She began by asking for his response to allegations that Australia has become too subservient to the United States.
MICHAEL THAWLEY, AUSTRALIAN AMBASSADOR TO WASHINGTON: I have never felt in five years here that I was acting in any way for a country, other than for a country, which was able to make up its own mind about everything. Closeness - the worry about closeness, I sometimes think, is a bit of a remnant of cultural cringe. If you want to get something out of a country, if you want out of a relationship, if you want to work with a country to your mutual benefit, you have to get close to it. I think a lot of this debate stems from a lack of confidence on our part - the notion that the United States is so big and powerful that if we get close to it we'll be trampled and we won't be able to stand up for ourselves. It is quite possible for us to get close to the United States and act in our national interests. And indeed, if you look at the last few years, I'd say there have been some very practical demonstrations of that, so I would say let's look at the results rather than pound our chests and get into esoteric debates about closeness, independence and so on.
LEIGH SALES: Does the US take for granted that we will go along with what they say?
MICHAEL THAWLEY: No, no, of course not. I think the United States obviously would like us to support it in various ways and quite often we do. I mean, there are cases where we agree with the United States. Now, we don't agree because that's what the United States says it wants. We agree because we've made an assessment that this course of action is in our national interests.
LEIGH SALES: You were one of the first people who floated the idea of a US-Australia free trade agreement. What sort of response did you get initially?
MICHAEL THAWLEY: Oh, I think it's fair to say most people thought I was mad and I can think of very few people who thought that we'd get there, either Australians or Americans. From time to time, I got pretty worried and certainly in the final two to three weeks of negotiations, there were moments when both sides got pretty impassioned, not to say angry, and we had to retreat to our corners to cool off. There were difficult moments.
LEIGH SALES: How disappointed were you that sugar was left out of the final agreement?
MICHAEL THAWLEY: I was very disappointed, and, I think - I had hoped, right until the very end, that we would get something on sugar. I knew that we weren't going to get free trade in sugar.
LEIGH SALES: Is that something that you think that your successor should keep pushing for?
MICHAEL THAWLEY: Well, I think it's very important that we regard the free trade agreement as a beginning and not an end. The worst thing of all would be for us to think, "Oh, well, we've done that. "We've got a free trade agreement and that's the end of it." The free trade agreement provides for a variety of mechanisms for continuing to discuss a whole range of issues. I would be astonished if, in three to five years' time, the free trade agreement is exactly the same as it is now.
LEIGH SALES: Do you expect that the Americans will continue to push for changes, particularly with pharmaceutical benefits?
MICHAEL THAWLEY: Well, they'll push hard on a whole range of things - I mean, that's real life - but I think if you want to win something, you've got to be in there.
LEIGH SALES: What are the big challenges that your successor's going to face?
MICHAEL THAWLEY: There are many people right around the world who are seeking the United States' attention, seeking its support, in any area you think of - technology, trade, defence, whatever. And, you know, we will have to ensure that we keep a very active agenda focused on our national interest and what it is that we can benefit from in this relationship.
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