German-Pennsylvanian Association

Transcription

Matthew Hebert- Hello everyone and welcome to this presentation of the National Archives Assembly, we are very pleased to have Mr. Meyer Fishbein in here. The National Archives Assembly is an employee organization dedicated to fostering communication and employee development throughout NARA. One of our initiatives has been to advocate for a NARA historian position and we are pleased that position was filled in 2012 by Jessie Kratz and I will introduce her and if she could come up and say hi and introduce the speakers. Jessie Kratz-Thank you and welcome to this program. This program came out of a brain child of Rod. We were talking about my new website that I put together for the National Archives History Office. I had been putting together biographies of all the past Archivists and he mentioned he had known Meyer and Meyer knew pretty much all of the Archivists. And he thought it would be a great program to bring Meyer in and bring all of these past Archivists to life. Rod has been a great mentor to me, a great friend and a great colleague and I'm so excited to introduce Rod Ross from Legislative Archives interviewing Meyer Fishbein. Thank you. Rod Ross-Thank you Jessie and thank you Matt. I am Rod Ross an archivist with the Center for Legislative Archives. In the mid 1980's I did some oral history interviews partly to document the independence movement and Meyer was one of the people that I talked with, so in recent months I've redeveloped a friendship with Meyer. What I want to do today since we're being recorded, is basically give some understanding of some of the controversies, some of the key people and especially Meyer's role here at the National Archives. So for the initial interview that I did in 1985, copies of which the cassette is available upstairs, I started out in the very beginning and worked our way through Meyer's career. What I wanted to do today was pretty much jump to center part of his career and then his coming on to the appraisal unit, then move on to one of his great accomplishments of being responsible for bringing electronic records, machine readable records, as accessioned records at the National Archives; then talk about his continuing role with the appraisal division. Mr. Ross- So, Meyer let's start out in the early 1960's; you're a branch chief for business economic records. Mr. Fishbein- Yes, that's right. Mr. Ross- Then you get tapped by Theodore Schellenberg to come in to the new appraisal unit, let's start out by what background did you have with Agency Records, who was Schellenberg, and why did the Archives have yet another reorganization with Schellenberg head of appraisal. Mr. Meyer- Well, my earliest experience was in packing and shelving records of NRA, that's not the National Rifle Association it's the National Recovery Administration. It was an agency that didn't last long. It was declared unanimously unconstitutional by the Supreme Court but they had accumulated more information about the economy of a nation that existed anywhere in the world but the records were going to be destroyed. Harold Ickes, Secretary of the Interior, decided: save money just incinerate the records. The National Archives was established and stopped the destruction, which was very fortunate because the records were very valuable during the Second World War. They needed the same information that NRA collected, but most of the records had been dumped into cartons and so they were completely mixed up and put on open shelves. Some records were organized and my first job was to put them in boxes. I became familiar, I don't know if to talk about the first request that I got. Mr. Ross- For purposes of clarification, Meyer joined the Archives in 1940. He got assigned to what was sometimes called "The Ghetto", which was the division headed by Paul Lewiston. In the audience we have a Lawyer from Washington, Paul Pascal, whose father Leo, was also in that same unit. So before, let's still get to what I really wanted to talk about and then we have approximately 40 minutes, we'll come on back. So basically take questions from the audience as well as once we go through the stellar points of your career, go back and talk about the personalities of some of the Archivists. Let's start out with a personality: Who was Ted Schellenberg? Mr. Fishbein- Ted Schellenberg was an expert, very knowledgeable about agriculture. He got his PhD from U Penn and worked briefly for the park service, but his main interest was agricultural history so that when he came to the National Archives, he was a Deputy Examiner (and I could explain if you want). He would go to the agricultural department to find out what records deserve preservation and he reported to Dorsey Hyde, who was director of accessions. As I explained to the Archivist of the United States that was actually the equivalent of Assistant for the National Archives, because accessioning was the only program. He reported, he and Paul Lewiston, who was examining Labor Department Records, found big files of punch cards and when they reported it to Dorsey Hyde, he said they completely ignored them. When I heard about it years later, I said: That doesn't make any sense at all; you just don't ignore them, why are they being retained and do they still have the paper records that explain what's on the punch cards and what has been done with them? So he completely ignoring them was a very unfortunate decision at the time. It was cleared up later. Mr. Ross- So once again for Schellenberg he eventually gained an international reputation with our management. How did that come about? Mr. Fishbein- Well, he got a consultant ship in Australia and published the first of his books on archival management. He did two internationally known books on archival management, but he didn't get along unfortunately with the top staff. They didn't know what to do about him, he was very vocal on his disdain for them which I think was quite unfortunate. Shellenberg had some personality problems that unfortunately had some negative effects, but I got along well with him on the job, but he completely ignored me outside the job. Mr. Ross- So a couple of things that come to mind in your speaking; one, you said it would be the late 50's early 60's the archives had yet another reorganization. The Archivist and his Deputy Wayne Grover and Bob Bahmer decided to go function instead of record division agency, and they created the appraisal unit either to get rid of Shellenberg or to give him that place because they thought that he would be the best to develop. How did you end up getting onto Schellenberg's staff? Mr. Fishbein- Well, I first realized the reorganization was in the works I was called by Bob Bahmer to lunch with the Executive Director to ask me what I thought. First of all with Oliver Wendell Holmes, who was one of the scholars in the Archives, what I thought of his management style, and I said, I wouldn't talk about him behind his back, I wouldn't say anything. It indicated to me that something was up with the reorganization. It was very shortly after that, it was reorganized and to find an appropriate job for Shellenberg, to get him away from the top staff, they made him a Director of the office, what was then called the Office of Records Appraisal. It was around Christmas weekend there was a party in the conference room and he shook my hand and later said: The people whose hand I shook, are going to be working for me. For personal reasons, it ruined my weekend but it was the most fortunate thing that happened to me. Mr. Ross- Ok so you come on board you end up having Census as one of the agencies that you're going off to review, when you did go leading us into your huge recognized claim to fame of being the person responsible for having the archives treat machine readable records as any other kind of federal record to be accessioned. How did that part come about? Mr. Fishbein- Well, when Schellenberg started the Office of Records Appraisal he had about (I forgot the size of the staff) 10 at most. We sat around a table and Shellenberg said: Let's talk about what we're going to be doing. He says he thinks we ought to do something to instead of just looking at records at random, that we decide what records should be retained and just ignore the rest and tell the agency to get rid of them whenever they're no longer needed for operating purposes. That sounded like a great idea to me so I said, well why don't I try it out at the Census Bureau. I drew up a plan for retained records, this was 1963. I went over to Census Bureau to see if the plan would work and I came upon an odd looking room. It was a big glass window, narrow, with little cubby holes with things in the cubby holes and I said well what is that? That's a tape library. Well what's a tape library? They were experimenting about the use of machine readable actually, now known as electronic and they experimented with electronic wire tape, electronic wire. It didn't work very well and they switched to what was then called Mylar tape and I said well what are you going to do with it? He says we're going to erase it. I said why are you going to erase it? Well we don't need it anymore and if we erase it we can reuse it and save $12 dollars and 50 cents. I said no, you can't do that, those are records you can't just decide to throw them out they have to be appraised. I went back to the Archives, at that time Schellenberg didn't last long in that position. He just quit, he couldn't get along with the top staff and Lou Dater became head of then called Appraisal Division. I went back to Dater and said "We have to do something about this Mylar tape that agencies are creating." He reported that to Bob Bahmer, the Archivist, and shortly after that formed (I don't know if it's worth mentioning) a committee from the Social Science Research Council, a committee of economists to ask what the National Archives was going to do about machine readable records. Meantime, I ran around trying to find out all I can; I went to Ann Arbor, social science organization, where they had social science and political data all on cards. I asked them, what are you going to do with it? They say, we are going to take the cards and convert them to tape. So I proposed that we decide what to do about it; about the electronic records and the people at the National Archives thought I was some kind of nut. They said it has nothing to do with archives. I disagreed with them but as a result of that, Dater made me Assistant Director of the Division. He wasn't a well man and when he retired I became Division Director and I spend a good deal of my time trying to figure out how to handle it. I worked with the records management people at the National Archives. Jeff Aldrich was the Director, one of the sharpest guys in the institution; a tough boss. We worked together on developing questionnaires about gathering information on each file. What it contained, what uses it had, what uses they made of it and whether the information is worth keeping. I said, if it's worth keeping we'll find some way to preserve it but the most important thing is to decide whether it's of enduring value. Then we'd figure out how to handle it in the future. Once we had a depository in Alexandria, they decided that any that the agency had retired and was still valuable, was sent to Alexandria. I don't know how much more of that you want to know. Mr. Ross- Well you said eventually the archives did decide to ascension electronic records? Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, Yeah. Mr. Ross- So, if we can talk about that, and then how was it that you became the promotional person for the Society of American Archivists for other archival agencies in this country doing the same. Mr. Fishbein- You mean my other, well, what I was doing was I had a full scale appraisal of records followed up on Census. What I did with Census, I took my original draft added another chapter to my plan for retention of records and added a section on what we called then machine readable records. Which of course became completely electronic over time and fortunately the records, I knew the records manager at Census and he went along with my proposals and accepted it. My other big job was working with the FBI in a retention plan which was unusual. I don't know if that's of any interest. Mr. Ross- Well you mentioned taken in Emma Goldman materials. Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, well what happened with the FBI, was even though I had Top Secret Clearance, they wouldn't let me look at any records. In any case, I just gave them a retention plan and it wasn't long after that I was called to a meeting. It must have been about five top rated FBI staff and the meeting was directed (chaired) by an Assistant Director of the FBI. They said, they assigned to a Senior FBI agent who was there at the meeting, he said he went around found files that he didn't know existed. He says he learned a great deal about J. Edgar Hoover's plans in 1924 about the agency. He says and since then that whole plan was still in effect, but he hadn't known it until he found the records; what he produced was a big stack of papers describing every file worth retaining and asked me what I thought of it? I went through it, it was a great job, and I said that. He says, well it's the last time you're going to see it. After that I got Christmas cards every year from J. Edgar Hoover, but I don't know I had a fight with the agency. Should I mention that? Mr. Ross- How did it happen that you got, you said Emma Goldman records? Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, what happened was I had a brief fight with the FBI in between. They accused me of saving a file on investigations of members of Congress When L. Patrick Gray told that to Congress, I was very angry picked up the phone and raised heck that Mr. Fishbein he didn't mean that. They said, you had acted very properly, they had asked me, (should I mention why they accused me?) Mr. Ross- Well I still want to get into, you said the archives accessioned machine readable records and then you got a chairmanship with the SAA basically promoting electronic records correct? How did come about? Mr. Fishbein- Accessioning? Mr. Ross- How did it happen that you became basically the national point person for promotion of electronic records accessioning by archival agencies? Mr. Fishbein- How I got there? Mr. Ross- Right! How did you become the SAA point person? Mr. Fishbein- For electronic records, well the thing is I was just in appraisal; I didn't have to manage. All I had to decide was whether the records should be preserved or not but I thought I had to develop a system of appraisal before electronic records. I with the help of a few people developed questionnaires, forms of the agencies to fill out describing each file and what paper records are kept in order to be able to read the electronic records. I had a close relationship with the records management staff, who actually managed who worked with the agencies on disposal of all records including electronic records. And so actually my role in effect ended, except for my role with the International Council on archives when I was made a chairman of it, of an international committee on automation. Mr. Ross- and you said that was an 8 year commitment on your part? Mr. Fishbein- Was it? Mr. Ross- Did you say that was an 8 year commitment? Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, I got a cable from Paris asking me whether I would be chairman of a task force on machine readable records. Ernst Posner said you have to go you're obliged to go. The National Archives didn't do anything for me but I got a grant from the Council of Library Resources who paid my expenses and we had our first meeting in Spoleto, Italy. Mr. Ross- Ok, let's go back a little bit. You were head of appraisal, when Maygene Daniels in her 1995 Presidential Address lauding you and Leonard Rapport, she mentioned the use of retention schedules. Is that something that was unique to you? Had Schellenberg developed them? And then where does it fit in with the elimination of Congress giving its approval for the destruction of useless records? Mr. Fishbein- What happened, you know the old system was the National Archives would receive requests for the disposal of records, we would make our recommendations. Presumably Congress, a joint committee of the Senate and the House would make a decision, it was really managed by the House of Representatives rather than the Senate but there was a joint committee. The Congress in effect was more or less rubber stamping our proposals until one member of congress from California said "I'm not going to approve it, I don't understand what you're doing." At that time records were piling up and they kept blaming me for not being able to dispose of records sitting in the hallway, sitting in the basement. Why don't do get on the ball? I say, I'm doing the best I can. I went to the Hill; I say what's holding this up? They told me the Congressman refused, I said; well let me talk to him. No you can't talk to him, he just won't approve it. So the House proposed a bill to change the system and get congress out of it. The House Bill was completely unworkable. They said they would give the Archives a chance to discuss any proposed bill. The House didn't do it, they just passed it. Fortunately when it got to the Senate, the send it at that time we were still attached to GSA, so the GSA said, well if you have any questions about this bill let us know. It went through GSA to the National Archives and came to me and said "you have 1 hour to go over the House Bill." I said "It's unworkable." I quickly wrote the bill out changing the system. I made one caveat- that we would not be responsible for the disposal of GSA records. I didn't want to get involved; I figured GSA is full of fraud. The Senate eliminated that, accepted the rest of the bill. Of course it didn't make any sense to make a distinction of GSA. It was clear to me how the system would work. If there was any improper disposal of records I would be fired. Mr. Ross- So basically, the National Archives developed retention schedules instead of simply having congress approve a list of useless records. Mr. Fishbein- Yeah. Mr. Ross- So what would you say your key accomplishment was being with appraisal and how did your job with appraisal end, why did it end? Mr. Fishbein- Well, you know I enjoyed everything I did. That change in the disposal procedure eliminating congress or something, I just dashed off. As far as appraisal is concerned that I think was a major plan. The whole idea of it was that we would decide what records would be kept permanently and let the agency decide to do what it can, what it wished with the rest of the records. Well GSA sent Bert Rhoads a note that not enough records were being destroyed. Without discussing it with me, Bert Rhodes terminated the appraisal division which more or less brought disposal to a complete halt because the rest of the archives couldn't care less about disposal of records. Mr. Ross- Ok, and the Bert said, where do you want to go Meyer? And you ended up your career as head of military archives? Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, well you know, I had a fight with Bert Rhodes about his management style and he should have demoted me in a similar position that's what I would have done. But somehow he taught I had clout with economists and historians that clout really was of no importance. They couldn't have done anything if I had been demoted. When someone, when one of my branch chiefs acted improperly to me, cursed me, I temporarily removed them from his job to show them there's just one boss. But Bert Rhodes thought I had clout, so he said what job do you want? Obviously I should have said, I want your job but the military archive there was no division chief. Mabel Dietrich who was Director of the military archive was moved up to Assistant Archivist for the National Archives and so I thought it would be a real challenge to me. The civil division would have been easy for me but Mrs. Smith (Ray A. Smith) who had been running that division she was a nice person I just couldn't say I want her job; I would never do that to her, she was very nice. So I took the military, I thought it would be a challenge for me, but it turned out to be a management headache and completely unsatisfactorily. Mr. Ross- Before we go into the personalities of the various archivists you've known, you mentioned that Bob Bahmer had come onboard or Bob Warner rather and he said to you "Meyer, we're going to investigate appraisal" and that's about the point where you decided "I don't think so" and you resigned? Mr. Fishbein- No, no that was Warner, wasn't that his name? Mr. Ross- Right, Bob Warner. Mr. Fishbein- He kept talking to me about what jobs I could take. I say "I've done all of that." There was a Christmas party and I was wishing somebody who was retiring from repair and preservation good luck and I say "what the heck am I doing here." That was Christmas week, I went down give me another piece of paper or I'm through. Mr. Ross- Ok so that ends your career. Let's go back to talking about personalities of the early archivists. So you came on in 1940 in the lowest of low positions having come from New York as a clerk in Census and got a job at the archives. Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, that was in Washington Mr. Ross- R.D.W Connor was the archivist. You had mentioned that just about the time you came onboard, the battle between librarians and historians had ended. Do you want to talk a little bit about that battle? Mr. Fishbein- About the war? The head of accessions Hyde, Dorsey Hyde, (Records) most of his career was working in various libraries and he thought he would do cataloging and classification for describing and organizing archives. He said he would show how well it worked with the records of the WWI Food Administration. It was an absolute disaster, but he wouldn't give up. In the meantime other records are coming in with nobody to describe them. So Shellenberg, Lewiston, and probably Dallas Irvine who was expert on military records, he had a military career; he was kicked out of West Point who was objecting to the decisions by Dorsey Hyde. It wasn't only his failure to understand archives management, but his decisions on appraisal didn't make any sense to them. Eventually the Deputy Archivist those were very good appointments, by Connor, unfortunately those two top jobs he didn't pick people who were well qualified Marcus Price and Dorsey Hyde. But he made good appointments for deputy examiners, the people who went into the agencies to find there permanently valuable records. So they rose up against the librarians and it kind of brought the archives to a stop. Congress discovered that and it made Connor in a position that was untenable. So Connor had to resign and go to the manuscripts division of Library of Congress and became President of North Carolina University. He was the perfect southern gentleman. When I first came to the archives, I thought it was kind of a gentlemen's club. If you saw the movie gentlemen's agreement you might understand that. Mr. Ross- You know, I was taken when you said you got hired because the Civil Service Commission was not happy with the National Archives. Mr. Fishbein- Yeah there was an investigation by the Civil Service Commission because National Archives was completely ignoring the civil service requirements. The background to that is there were no standards for archivists and so Connor would have to develop his own standards for accepting archivists, appointing archivists. Unfortunately he thought he could fill all positions without regard to civil service. This was in the upper 30's about 1937 I believe. The archives felt they had to use people certified by examinations who were acceptable to the civil service system. So one of the reasons I was hired, I came off a list that happened to be the list for assisted messengers. Mr. Ross- I was taken that basically when you had your interview you had the impression that the interviewer did not like Jews and that you were appointed and then you had a theory why you got appointed. Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, well I don't know if they still have the same rule the Office of Personnel Management, but usually they submitted three names and my bad interview with the head of repair and preservation I was quite surprised to be offered a job. The only thing I could figure is that the other two must have been African Americans so I was selected as the best of three poor choices. Mr. Ross- You know one of the things that most impressed me in talking with you is how you've seized opportunities for promotion with this agency. Now you were assigned to what you sometimes call "The Ghetto" was that because it had a preponderance of Jews and how did Paul Lewiston fit in? Mr. Fishbein- You know when I mention that to Paul Lewiston he looked at me as though he didn't understand what I was talking about; of course he understood. Leo Pascal was there and to show a good example, there was an appointee who came from Brooklyn with a name that could've been Jewish and so he was assigned to Lewiston. As it turned out he was a hot Irishman. The name came from an Austrian grandfather and he would go into Paul Lewiston with a big battiness America first. I don't know if that name is familiar to you Charles Lindbergh was one of the leaders' right wing. So he was assigned to Lewiston assuming he was Jewish. Mr. Ross- What was Lewiston's subject area? You know and the various people under him there and your subject area. Mr. Fishbein- Lewiston had quite a career. Coming out of High School he was awarded a grant by Pulitzer the Publisher in the New York world because he was so outstanding in Latin. Pulitzer paid for all his expenses at Columbia University. Then he went to in 1926 I think to the London School of Economics as his wife Jean Fletcher. Probably that name Fletcher doesn't mean anything but if you look up Abraham Fletcher considered one of the most influential men in the United States. As she said as a historian, he's an excellent economist. So that's why he was the one who grabbed the National Recovery Administration records when they should've have gone to the people specializing in the records of the Commerce Department under someone named Cummins who was a nice guy but not particularly outstanding. Mr. Ross- See I want to let the audience ask questions but before let's talk about the personalities Solon Buck versus Grover versus Bahmer and then we'll open it up for audience. So how would you describe each of those three men? Mr. Fishbein- Solon Buck his major publication was on the farm revolt in the Midwest. The Farm revolt in the upper part of 20's in the 1900 century. He had a great demand for scholarship. He wanted his staff to publish and so when I was up for promotion he turned me down because I didn't have enough education. He told me he was sacrificing me because some of the top people weren't any good which struck me as an odd reason for denying me a promotion, but a little over a month later he approved it. When I was in the Army in England a cable arrived from Solon Buck thanking me for my contributions on the publication "World War I agencies and their records." It made a great impression on them it didn't make much of an impression on me. Mr. Ross- Well you said on your Army superiors. You said the receipt of that cable made an impression on your army superiors. Mr. Fishbein- yeah, yeah, oh yes they were very impressed even though I was told I would never get a promotion cause I wanted a head Lt in the build for D-Day. When headquarters asked for someone to be there this was for the preparation for the landing in France I was sent. When they were told to give a lecture on the Japanese military I didn't know it at the time, we were scheduled to from Europe to the Pacific without stopping in the United States. I said well what I'm going to talk about, they said talk about the Japanese military, well I didn't know anything about the Japanese but they gave me a big packet of stuff. I say how long do you want me to talk? He says, well three hours. I actually talked 2 ½ hours without notes (laughs) so that's the result of Solon Buck's cable. Mr. Ross- So I do want to get into Wayne Grover and Bob Bahmer, but before I do are there any questions from those here in the audience? Paul Pascal audience member)- Hey Meyer you mentioned Leonard Rappaport who wrote a beautiful obituary for my father, did you read anything about Leo Pascal? Mr. Fishbein- I met Pascal the day I arrived at the National Archives. I was introduced to every one of them except Mary Walton Lewiston which I don't know if I need to explain or not. So I was working I was assigned to work with Leo Pascal and he was showing me the ropes and we became as you know very good friends. He had taken the history exam finally the archives had some way of approving candidates for the National Archives. They used an examination on American History and Leo was excellent on remembering names of people in American History that I knew nothing about. He did well on it but the archives did not appreciate Pascal's hard work. I thought I would press for that for him but he was very slow in getting promotions. He had a degree from Cleveland (what's that University's name I should remember it) Western Reserve yeah thank you. It was unfortunate somehow or other that they didn't appreciate how hard Pascal worked. Mr. Ross- So to conclude with Leo Pascal, what did he do at the archives? Mr. Fishbein- Who? Mr. Ross- Leo Pascal? Mr. Fishbein- He was working with me. I for a long time for various reasons, worked exclusively on National Recovery Administration which was very fortunate because we had a lot of economists. I saw more economists that I saw of historians in the early days and eventually let to my becoming chief of what was then called the Business Economic Branch. Mr. Ross- Well let's move on since I want to cover at least the two archivists- Wayne Grover and Bob Bahmer, but I do see there's a question Mr. Ross- (points) Rick Blondo? Mr. Blondo- Why were you falsely accused of taking that FBI file on members of Congress? You were going to explain earlier. Mr. Fishbein- Oh ok. Want me to explain that? Yeah I can explain it. I got a call from the FBI. They said they have a file and they wanted to get rid of it can they just throw it out without going through the paperwork? So I said, can you say this is within the jurisdiction, the law of the FBI authority? They said yes, but we don't want the file it's in New York. I said no, if you're in a hurry to dispose of it I will give it a priority and send it. At that time it was still going through Congress. I said I'll rush it, if it's disposable I'll quickly get rid of it. Ok, a day or two later I got a call. Hey Mr. Fishbein let me understand that we have to go through normal procedures. I said, Listen to me, and if you want to destroy records illegally don't involve me. That was the end of my conversation Well, Congress found out about the file and he sends the fault to the archives. He was blaming me; I didn't even know what the records were. Well I got angry and I called. He says Mr. Fishbein what you did was very appropriate and proper, but he didn't me mean to involve me. It resulted in me having excellent relations with the FBI and the Emma Goldman business. Mr. Ross- Ok so we're finally going to get to Wayne Grover and Bob Bahmer, who were they and what did they do? Mr. Fishbein- Wayne was from Utah, Mormon. He started I think CPA; he started as a kind of a clerk at the National Archives actually at exactly the same grade as I. It would have been the equivalent of a GS1. He worked briefly on the Hill and he ended up marrying the daughter of a Senator who was high up in the hierarchy. I think that was a little bit of a help in his career. He apologized at his Farewell Address it was an assembly like this for not paying more attention. He spent most of his time organizing, developing the Regional Records Centers but he left Bahmer pretty much in charge. They worked very closely together. They came to the National Archives during the war, they went to the War Department and became records managers during WWII and then returned. Grover, there was apologies, I happen to know that he was great help to the staff. He protected the staff against the McCarthy inquisitions and even protected a member of the staff whom I knew very well; who policemen reported that he was homosexual and Wayne Grover's reply was: I don't like enticement. I am one of the few people who knew that story at all. Mr. Ross- You said enticement? Mr. Fishbein- Yeah, enticement, that the policemen had enticed him. I know the circumstances but that's beside the point. Grover he didn't approve of enticement and he did nothing about the staff member who was married and had a family. Bahmer was a very good manager. He was from North Dakota, got a degree from Colorado University and studied also in California. He was a good manager. He didn't produce any scholarly works but what the archives needed at that point was a good a manager, and Bahmer was a good manager. I didn't always agree with him but he was a supporter on this ordeal with electronic records. When I told him about electronic records he immediately gave me permission to discuss, to work out, to figure out what to do with electronic records. So he had a committee, since I wasn't at the proper level the chairman of the committee was Everett Alldredge, the assistant archivist for records management but we worked closely together and developed the electronic records division. Mr. Ross- And I am tempted to say, which brings us back to do (singing). So are there any last words. Mr. Fishbein- Anybody? Mr. Ross- Are there any other questions from the audience? Mr. Ross- Otherwise before the magic time comes, let's talk a little bit about how one advances in the agency and how you advanced. Mr. Ross- Advancement? Mr. Fishbein- For me? Mr. Ross- For you and by the time you left had advancement opportunities become regularized? You went to was it American University to take additional classes; was there anyone who basically told you how you could advance in the agency? Mr. Fishbein- No, you know I had my luck up to the age of 24 my luck was all bad but from then on when I started with the Census coming to the archives my luck was all good. So the most important thing I think is just pure luck. I had luck, a lucky incident after I was in the archives in just a week and a half. I kept asking for promotions and they kept telling me I'm academically unqualified and every once in a while they told me I was a dead end. I didn't accept that. That's pretty much now impossible. Walt Robertson, who was Executive Director of the National Archives, said that my career would now be impossible. Mr. Ross- Ok so Ernst Posner was a refugee scholar, what impact did he have on your career and how did you in effect become his successor? Mr. Fishbein- I didn't know who Ernst Posner was at my level. I signed up immediately at American University because they told me I had to have American History. I may have met him briefly but I hardly wouldn't know who he was; I took his one year course. Up until that time, I thought that the National Archives when they talked about professional archivists I just don't believe it. It's just a job that you learn on the job cause that was my experience but when I went to Ernst Posner course, he started out by saying: "Archives is the second oldest profession" and that pretty much changed my mind. I actually in one of my publications, I refer to a business archives that dated from about 1500 B.C. It was he who told me that I have to accept the position to go to Italy as a Chairman of the Task Force that became a committee. So I was Chairman of a committee on (International Committee) automation for 8 years; met in Europe and met in Africa. Mr. Ross- You know in terms of women at the archives and minorities, do you think that the archives gave women and minorities an even break? Mr. Fishbein-I think going around to agencies, I think the National Archives Records is good. The pair in preservation was highly prejudiced they were all white but there were a number of sub professionals in Lewison's division. We had a sub professional unfortunately she wasn't very good at the job but I covered for her but they did pretty well. The fact that they were able to hire Harold Pinkett, and there was Sarah Jackson I don't know if that name is familiar to you. She was the expert on military records. I still remember a southern professor saying "I told my wife I'm in love with Sarah Jackson." Besides that there was Jimmy Walker who started out as a messenger and became a leading authority on genealogical sources. He became nationally known, professional genealogists would say "I want to see Jimmy Walker first." Very nice guy and a hard worker. There was one other who was promoted to become head of the FDR Library. They selected him rather than Harold Pinkett, who should have gotten the job. They picked someone who wouldn't make waves, nice guy but he wouldn't make waves. Mr. Ross- Let's end by talking about the union at the archives. Do you think the union has been beneficial for the National Archives and it what way? Mr. Fishbein- The union? Mr. Ross- You're right. Mr. Fishbein- (laughing) that's kind of a funny situation. It was Bob Bahmer who started the union and of course he had to resign when he became Deputy Archivist. After the left the union, it declined. The union later was Catherine Murphy who was anti -- imagine a President of a union who was anti union, she was protecting her own job. She was a lot of fun, very good sense of humor and actually pretty bright, but she spent more time in the bathroom putting on her makeup to cover her age than she spent actually working. So she became President of the union to protect herself. Mr. Ross- Well perhaps that's not the right note to end on but I think end we must (all laughing). I really appreciate all of you having come and I especially appreciate you, Meyer being willing to share your knowledge, so thank you very much. (Audience clapping) Mr. Fishbein- Thank you for inviting me it's good to be an Archivist again for an hour.