Massimo Scolari in conversation with Léa-Catherine Szacka &Thomas Weaver

Author(s): Léa-Catherine Szacka, Thomas Weaver and Massimo Scolari

Source: AA Files, No. 65 (2012), pp. 33-47
Published by: Architectural Association School of Architecture
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 Massimo Scolari

in conversation with

Léa-Catherine Szacka

& Thomas Weaver

Arduino
Cantafora,
Portrait Scolari
ofMassimo asa Young in1974,
Artist 2012
Massimo
Courtesy Scolari

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ThelifeofMassimoScolariseemsenviablein EisenmanandthelateRaymund Abraham and aroundEuropeandNorth Africa withhim,and
almosteveryway. Borntoa well-to-do Veneto- JohnHejduk.Highly poeticyet never lacking sometimes bymyself, promoting hisbusiness.
Piedmontese family in1943, Scolarisearly years a senseofspace,Scolari'sownpaintings I remember being in Brusselsfor three months
weredistinguished as muchbyhischildhood anddrawings nowsitintheprivate collections in1958whenthegreatExpowason.I wasonly15
as
drawings they were by feats of physical daring ofa number of hisarchitecturalfriends, in atthetime.TheMexicanandBrazilian pavilions
straightout ofone of Lartigue's photographic addition to the permanent collections of wereusingmyfather's machines andI had
albums- helearntdownhill skiing, forexample, , severalartmuseumsandgalleries, including tomakesurethey wereworking okay.I alsogot
from LeoGasperl, whofora number ofyears moma,Deutches Architektur Museum,Centre toseeLe Corbusier's Philipspavilion, which
heldtheworldspeedrecord(89mph); he PompidouandGalleria aam. me
impressed hugely, and the magicalstructure
perfected his rock climbing with the famous We met with Scolariinhishomecityof oftheCivilEngineering Arrow byJeanvan
Italianmountaineer AchilleCompagnoni; VeniceinlateAugust 2012,first
ontheterrace of Doosselaere, Andre Paduart and Jacques
helearnttofencewithGiuseppeMangiarotti, hislocalcafe,thePasticceria AllaBragora, Moeschal.I alsoboughtmyfirst everrecords
whohadcompeted atthe1908Olympics, later whereelegantly dressedina creamsummer attheRussianpavilion - EmilGilelsplaying
following hismaster inbecoming Italian suithepeeredoverhistortoiseshell sunglasses Schumann's Sonatainfa diesisminore andValéry
champion in1962;andhealsotooka diver's as iftoannouncehimself. Wethenescaped Klimov playing Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto.
courseinLongIsland,NewYork, before thecrowdsandmovedtohisnearby palazzo Wealsotravelled toGermany a lot- 1canstill
working as a lifeguard atJonesBeach,usa. Sagredo. Justas thewholearchitectural remember seeingAmerican policemen
Atthesametime,Scolariworked inhisfather's community seemedtohavedescendedonto directing trafficinFrankfurt inthemid-1950s
company whichmanufactured coffee roasting theArsenale andGiardini totakeinDavid - andthesombreatmosphere ofViennaa few
machines - workthatinthe1950stookhimto Chipperfield's 'CommonGround'biennale, we yearsafter theSovietarmyleftthecity. In1957
Hamburg, Brussels, Vienna,Frankfurt, Munich, foundourselves ina contrasting, andinfinitely I waswithmyfather inVienna'sGrinzing
CeutaandMelilla. nicer,rarefied pianonobile,listening toScolari districtwhereina famousheuriger I heard
In1963, aged20,Scolarientered architecture charmuswithaccountsofhislifewhile AntonKarasplaying thethemetunetoTheThird
schoolattheMilanPolitecnico, wherehe surrounded bythepaintings, books,model Manonhiszither. Hewasa kindofnational
graduated sixyearslater(hisstudiessomewhat airplanes andmicroscopes ofhisAliBaba'scave herobackthen.I'vestillgotthephotograph
interrupted bytheprotests of1968).Atthe ofa Venetian palazzo-Léa-Catherine Szacka hesignedformesomewhere.
Politecnico hehadstudiedunderErnesto Tw Ifyourearlylifeis TheThird Man,
NathanRogersandAldoRossi,withwhom whowereyouplaying - niceJoseph Cotten's
healsoworked, anditwaswithRossithat HollyMartins ornotso niceOrsonWelles's
Scolariwouldgoontodefendtheneo-rational- Harry Lime?
istarchitecture ofwhatbecameknownas ms Whata choice!Butanyway after those
theTendenza, participating intheMilan tripsI hadsomeproblems atschool,mostly
Triennale of1973andactingas editorof becauseI wasediting a leftist
magazine with
Architettura Razionale, themanifesto that a friendofmine.Wewerewriting aboutRussian
accompanied the exhibition. art- notconstructivism, butpre-revolutionary
Scolariis alsofamousforhisactivities nineteenth-century paintings - andabout
as a critic
andwriter. In1969PaoloPortoghesi theItalianconstitution anddemocracy. Because
invited himtoedithisnewmagazineContros- ofthiswesoongotcaughtupinallkindsof
pazio,anditwasthere, withEzioBonfanti, that censorship andwereeventually expelled. This
hefoundhimself intheearly1970satthecentre was1962.Italywasina verystrange political
oftheso-calledarchitettura disegnata . Itwas situation - ithadthemostimportant commu-
alsointhepagesofControspazio thatScolari nistparty inEurope,butatthesametime
published theresults ofhisurbanresearch and thecountry wasbeingrunbytheChristian
becametheadvocateofa new'urbanscience' Democrats, andofcoursebythecia, because
basedonRossi'stypological/morphological L-cs Massimo, beforewemetwithyouthis wewerestillcaughtupinColdWarpolitics.
analyses. Laterhewentontoeditother morning TomandI weregoingoveryour l-cs Whowasyourfriend?
magazines including Casabella ,LotusInterna- biography - orrather,theincredible biographic ms Oh,you'regoingtolikethis.Itwas
tionalandEidos,as wellas a seriesofarchitec- synopsis in
published therecent Skirabook ClaudioMussolini.
turalbookswithpublisher FrancoAngeli. onyourwork.We'rebothsojealousofthelife L-cs Oh,badluck.
Asa teacher Scolarihasheldacademicand you'velived.Andso tobegin,couldwemaybe ms Notatall!Claudiowasa very ironical
professorial positions attheMilanPolitecnico, gobacktotheearlierpartsofthisbiography, character.Justoneyearolderthenme,hewas
theUniversity ofPalermo, theiuav,Cornell, before architecture,tothoseyearsinMilanand thesonofVitoMussolini, nephewofBenito,
UCLA, ETSABarcelona, theCooperUnionr, first
your job withyourfather? whoonthedeathofhisbrother wasentrusted
PeterEisenman's iaus,theRoyalCollegeofArt, ms ThatwaswhenI wasinhighschool, thedirection ofIIPopolod'Italia. Indiametric
tu Vienna,gsd Harvard, theRoyalDanish helping myfather Antonio athisfactory opposition tohisgreatunclehewasalsoone
Academy inCopenhagen andiscurrently the manufacturing coffee-roastingmachines, and ofthekeymembers ofItaly'sYoungCommunist
Davenport Visiting Professor atYaleSchool working on the patentshe was developing - Association, thefgci [Federazione Giovanile
ofArchitecture. Through thisteaching andhis hehadnineorteninternational for
patents an Comunisti Wewereediting
Italiani]. II Leonardo,
editorialandcuratorial workScolarihas infra-redroaster forcoffeebeans.I usedtotravel a leftist
magazineproduced intheLeonardo
befriended manyimportant figures from within daVinciHighSchoolinMilan,andsowewere
theinternational architectural scene,among Massimo Scolari, expelled together. Claudiomanagedtore-enrol
themLéonKrier, withwhomhesharesa refusal IftheSubject Doesn'tCount,1988 thefollowing year.Inmycase,twohoursafter
tosubmittotheluresoftheavant-garde, Watercolouroncardboard myfather received theofficialcommunication

34 AAFILES65

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 MassimoScolari,
GasStation
Inn,1975
Watercolour
onpaper

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ofmyexpulsion I wasstanding infront of a bookproject plannedbyTamburini Edizioni or'I metLeCorbusier theotherdayandhe
a machine, working in his as
factory simplea all
covering aspects ofLe Corbusier work. explained to me...' It was justonearchitect talking
metalworker. OfcourseI wasbeingpunished, Rossihimself wastocoverCorb'sarchitectural abouthisarchitect friends andacquaintances.
butmyfather alsoboughtmea car- 'Ifyou projects, Ludovico Quaronitheurbanism tw Butatthesametimedidyoualsohave
work, youcanhavea car'.Soonafter I gotthecar andCarloLudovicoRagghianti thepainting. a moreclassicalhistory ofarchitecture?
I wasdriving through MilanwhenI sawmyhigh I wascharged withtheediting ofthegeneral ms Thehistory ofarchitecture wasstillpart
schoolFrench teacher - PasqualeJannini, who biography andbibliography. Intheend, ofarthistory andwastaught likea telephone
hadtriedtodefendmeduring cameofit,butas a second-year directory - Armenian architecture, Egyptian
myexpulsion. though, nothing
(Hewasjustan incredible person,really student I hadbeenintouchwithallthese architecture, Greekarchitecture, Renaissance
cultivated; he'dwritten an important bookon personalities. architecture - justlikeBanister Fletcher. Except
extraordinary
Guillaume Apollinaire, Lafortuna diApollinaire TWWereyoulooking atLe Corbusier's itwasneveractually calledarchitectural history,
inItalia,thefirst bookinItalyontheauthor.) buildings as wellas hispaintings, withtrips butrather Caratteri stilisticie costruttivi dei
Andso I stoppedandwetalked, andwhenI told toPoissyorGarches? monumenti ,a kind of descriptive helpus
listto
himI wasnowworking inmyfather's factory ms Yes,I wentthere, andsawallthose redraw of
sections Constantinople, HagiaSophia
hekickedmeinthearseandpractically structures, butthebuildings neverinterested andotherclassicalsites,andCaratteri distributivi
dragged mebacktotheschool,whereI was meas muchas hispaintings. degliedifici ,which later became the discipline
obligedtore-enrol as a 'private' student inthe l-cs Buthewasstilla kindoflegitimising through whichwestudiedbuilding typeand
summer of1963. figure foryou? urban morphology. Rogers, along with Bruno
L-cs Without yourfather knowing? ms Exactly. Becauseofhisability to think Zevi, Leonardo Benevolo and Manfredo Tafuri,
ms Yes,I keptitquiet.IntheendI passed through paintings, I figured I couldstayinthis wastheonlypersoninItalyteaching whatyou
withthehighest gradesanditwasthenthat architectural world. wouldunderstand nowas thehistory ofideas
I toldmyfather. He seemedpleased,butwanted TWAsmuchasyourown,private discovery in architecture.
mebackathisfactory. I said'No,I wanttogo ofLe Corbusier, werehisideasalsoa partofthe L-cs Whatwereyourowndesignprojects
to
on university' - at the time,ifyoucompleted curriculum andteaching atthePolitecnico? likeatthetime?
high school with very goodgrades, youcould ms Hewasn'tforced uponus,butwewere ms Oh,I'lljustgiveyouoneexample. In
getyouruniversity tuition covered bythestate. awareofhimandtheothermodern architects, my fourth year we were set a to
project design
Todo this,though, thestatehadtoknow notleastbecauseofthesmallarchitecture books a 'museumofarchitecture' - actually a very
thefulltaxdetailsofyourparents' income. thatTamburini waspublishing atthetime- difficulttask,eventoday. I remember thinking,
Clearly my father found this an inconvenient a seriesineffect controlled byBrunoZevi,and 'WhatthehellamI goingtodo?'So I started to
prospect becausehesaid,'Okay, I'llpayyour thatincluded monographs on Oud, Rietveld think about what to put in this damn museum.
fees.'So I entered the[Milan]Politecnico to andothermasters. Myprofessor atthetime, I'd beenreading a lotofgestalt theory through
study architecture. Ernesto NathanRogers, editorofCasabella textsbyKoehler, Musatti, Kanizsa,Katzand
TWAndyourfather sawarchitecture as from 1953to1965,wasvery charismatic andalso Gibsonandbecauseofthis- anddoubtless also
a suitableprofession, as something that to themodern movement, giving us because of the Rogers lectures on the Bauhaus -
very open
synthesisedyour artistic andtechnical skills? lectures onGropius, theBauhaus,Le Corbusier, I hadtheideaofhaving mymuseumcontain
msNo,myfather's artistic idealsdidn't Alvar Aalto,theViennese school,allthesepeople Gropius's project fora philosophy academy in
exist.Hewasa self-made man,an industrialist, whonobody elseatthePolitecnico wasteaching Erlangen. So I wrotetoGropius andaskedfor
hedidn'tcareaboutartistic matters, whichwas orknewanything about.'Fromthespoon somematerial abouttheErlangen Academy of
something he saw as not especially important or tothetown', theslogancreated byRogers in1952 Philosophy. He kindly wrotebackwitha package
serious.He really wantedmetobe anengineer, attheCharter ofAthens, wasvery intriguing ofphotographs, askingonlythatI return some
butwhenI said'Noway'hesaid'Okay, ifnot formebecauseitseemedtosuggest a connec- ofthephotographs becausethey werehisonly
engineering, it has to be architecture.' But then tionbetween painting, design, architecture copies.Thatwastheattitude then.Ifyouwereset
after starting atthePolitecnico I discovered andurbanism. Rogers wasneverdogmatic, a problem andyouwantedtoresolve ityouasked
Le Corbusier, almostas a kindofconsolation. andinsteadhadwhatyoucouldcalla 'Socratic' theexperts. I sentsimilar letters toGiedion
I wasimmediately drawntothefactthat method - hewouldneverimposehisownstyle andBanhamandlaterontoSibylMoholy-Nagy
heseemedtousetheexperimental activity of oridea,andalwaysseemedinterested intrying andalways gota reply. Butmorethantheprojects
painting as thepoeticstarting pointforhis tounderstand yourownidea,andhowtomake wewereset,thesituation atthePolitecnico
urbanism andarchitecture. I actually sawLe itgrow. Rogers taught a classonElements of wasdefined bytheprotests of1968.Therewere
Corbusier inpersonnotlongafterwards, atthe Composition andI hadthechancetohave him actually demonstrations againsttheVietnam War
openingofa wonderful exhibition ofhiswork as a teacher in1966fora project titled'Recon- in 1967, but itwas in and
1968 1969 that we started
inFlorence inFebruary 1963.Atthetimemy struction oftheDalVerme Theatre inMilano' tooccupytheschool.Thesituation wasreally
owndrawings andsketches werefairly childlike, (laterpublished in Lotus in 1970). He was the quitetricky. A number ofthe professors refused
typically featuring monsters andstrange figures of
exactopposite Rossi,Gregotti Albini, and to getinvolved, but others like Rossi were withus.
(probably somekindofreflection ofmyteenage whoallalsotaught me.Withthem,ifyoudidn't l-cs Whatwasthefocusfortheseprotests?
angst),buttheideathatexperimenting dowhatthey weredoingthenyouwereout. Wasitthewaror,likeinParis,thekindof
figuratively through drawing couldhelpdevelop Tw So Rogers wouldlecture onhistorical or education youwerereceiving?
constructed, architectural forms - thatnot contemporary as
figures way a to teach design? ms I think thetrigger wastheVietnam War
everything wasdeveloped through theories - ms Yes,butatthetime,teachers likeRogers promoted by what we understood as the 'capital-
wasso important to me. In 1965 1wrote a small wereintroducing thesepeoplenotas history, isticsystem', butthenas otherprotests took
thesisonLe Corbusier's paintings forprofessor butas partoftheireveryday lifeas anarchitect. placeacrossEurope, westarted torebelagainst
FrancoRussoli.Later, after Le Corbusier's Andofcoursetheyallknewoneanother. That variousinstitutions, our
including universities,
deathinAugust 1965, thisresearch gavemethe wasthefascinating thing. Rogers would say, saying 'no' to everything. Akindofdominoeffect
opportunityget to in touch with Aldo Rossifor 'my friend Gropius came in and told me that...', ensued, even if sometimes youcouldn't always

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remember whyyouhadsaid'no' inthefirst simply destroy a culture, andthatyouhadto ofthemagazineControspazio. Howdidthat
place.But that's thenatureofprotest. It'slike propose a better alternative. Ofcourse,thatwas comeabout?
whena warstarts. I punchyou,youpunchme, notthegoalof1968, whichwasjustabout ms Ohyes,I hadforgotten that.In1969,
thenmymother punchesyoutwice, thenyour destroying everything thatcamebefore. whileI wasstillcompleting mymaster's thesis,
mother punches me three times, myfather
then L-cs ButtogetbacktoRossi,wasn'this I wasapproached simultaneously byAldo,
intervenes andthreatens tokillyou,then approachtohistory whathewasdoingwith whoaskedifI wouldliketoworkas an assistant
yourfather actually killsmymother, andso on. theanalogouscity, whichitseemswasabout professor, teaching designatthePolitecnico,
TW Isn'tthisthehistory ofItaly? usingtraditional approaches tohistory andbyPaoloPortoghesi, whooffered mean
ms Well,yes,maybe, buttherealrebellion butmingling thesewithothermorepersonal editorialroleonthenewborn Controspazio .
intheschoolatthetimewasagainstthecanon, histories andmemories? IntheendI acceptedbothpositions. Tobegin
whichwasheavyandrule-based, andwhich ms Yes,forsure,butthatkindofthinghad withI justhada smallroleonthemagazine,
were
professors teaching tous without really happenedsincethebeginnings oftime.I mean, as secretary ofredazione ,butI soonbecame
thinking aboutit.Thisis oneofthereasonswhy just look at theAncient Egyptians. Inthe a member oftheeditorial team.Buttherewere
Rossihadsuchgoodfortune inthisperiod: thirteenth century bc,whenPrinceKhamwese, a
only very few of us - Ezio Bonfanti as editor-
hequestioned thecanonandinsteadpointed thesonofRameses11,wasrestoring theUnis in-chief,Virgilio Vercelloni, Antonio Monroy,
outtheimportance ofbuilding typesandthe pyramid atSaqqara,heconcealedonthesouth LucianoPatetta, whodidthearchitettura
morphology ofthehistorical city- what sideofthepyramid an inscription detailing interrottasupplement andPaolaMarzoli.
DavidChipperfield inhisbiennalemight call hisnameandtherestoration workhehad TW Diditseemperfectly normaland
the'commonground'. Andso rather thanjust carried out.Or,muchlater, ifyoulookatthe reasonable toyouthatafter graduating as an
speculating andbuilding thebigmasterpiece futurists, youcanseeintheiractiveforms the architectyourfirst professional position was
withlittlethought totheform ofthecity, Rossi descriptive geometries ofthenineteenth aneditorial one,working ona publication?
wasencouraging us tothinkofthecityas an century. Everybody isappropriating, everybody ms That'san interesting point,becauseat
architectural commonground, andofliving and is injecting theirownpolitics, theirown thetimepractically nobody wasbuilding, except
establishing connections. Andhewasalso historical background, allofthetime.Nothing maybeGregotti orAlbiniorRogers - itwas
advocating thiswithout reference tothemodern comesfrom nothing, as Quatremère de Quincy justthebigprofessional offices.Andatthesame
movement orthetraditions ofthemodern said.Rossiusedtoquotethisallofthetime. time,formeandmyfriends, beingmembers
movement - incontrast toalltheotherarchi- Hisargument wasthatmemory is tiedto ofthestudent movement andpartofthewhole
tectsandscholars atthetime,likeGabetti and culture, andsincewecannotremember whatwe leftistmentality, theideaofteaching and
Isola,orGregotti andtheRomanschool,who havenotyetseen,culture iswhathashappened helping somebody else,ofoccupying a worldof
foralltheirdeclaredinterest inlocalideasand before andnotwhatwillhappeninthefuture. pureknowledge, becamea kindofethicalissue.
a kindofbaroqueworldwerestillmoreorless Soyourbrainisworking allthetimeconnecting TW Butwasittheabsenceofanyopportuni-
guidedbya relationship tothemodern thepieces. I mean even a mosticonoclastic tiestobuildthatmeantyouwouldinsteadedit,
movement. Aldowasdifferent. Hewasthefirst architect likePeterEisenmanusesPiranesi for write, publishandteach,orwasthisa conscious
toarguethathistory is something an architect hisownprojects, and
overlapping scaling. decisiononyourpart,an ideathata truer
shouldknowanduse- butnotas Wittgenstein Andsowhyshouldwebe astonished bythefact architectural mandate wasnotnecessarily to
said,as something youshouldpassthrough ofusinghistory's forms? buildbuttoedit,topublishandtoteach?
evenifitdoesn'tteachyouhowtowalk.Rather, TW Wereyoupicking uptheseideasfrom ms I think thatis a complex question.
youmustlearnfrom history andsometimes Rossiwhileworking withhim,after graduation, Italsohasa complex answerinthesensethat
alsouseit.AndAldodidjustthis,as inBerlin andontheLe Corbusier book? theideology presented tous byMassimo
withhisMoltenitomb,elaborating a very ms I didworkwithhimafter graduation, CacciariandManfredo Tafuri intheirmagazine
simple architectural with
language, verysimple in1969,upuntilthetimea yearorso laterwhen Contropiano was that no one should bebuilding
forms, andsometimes evensimply imitating heleftMilanandwenttoZurich, butI actually intheservice ofthecapitalistic society.And
thepast.ButRossi'srelationship tohistory was started inhisoffice before in
that, 1967, while nooneshouldbe partoftheprocessofbuilding
alsoa reflection ofhispolitics, whichwerevery stilla student. In1968wedidtheScandiccitown speculation, becausetospeculate wastobe
ambiguous. Officially Rossiwasa leftist and hallcompetition together, andlaterI didsome involved withpoliticsandwitheconomics -
a communist, buthewasalsoveryinterested drawings forthe Gallaratese complex. Atthe thatis,withtheworstpartsofsociety, themost
intheculture oftheright, forinstance, with sametimeI wasona committee forthe vulgar partsofsociety, destroying thecityand
hisfondness fortheFrench writers PierreDrieu occupation oftheschooland- thisis a little producing horrible and badly built
architecture.
La Rochelle andLouis-Ferdinand Célineand bitcontradictory - 1waspartoftheItalian Instead,rather thanproducing things - build-
a literature
thatwasfarremoved from André nationalfencing team,competing intheworld -
ings theyencouraged us toproduceonly
Breton orLouisAragon, whohehadlittletime championships. Andinaddition tofencing, thinking on architecture. Ideas.Ontheother
for.ButFranceinthepre-andpostwar period andworking withRossi,andprotesting atthe hand,evenifwehadwantedtobuild,therewas
wasinteresting inthatitscultural identity was school,I wasalsoexhibiting someofmy notmuchopportunity todo so.EvenRossiwas
maintained bybothleftandright. InItalyitwas paintings - thefirst exhibition I hadwasin onlybuilding littlethings - likehisfamous
different.Culture onlycamefrom theleft, and 1967intheGalleriaRinascita, andRossiwrote Segrate fountain in1965, whichtodaywould
especiallysowithin thearchitectural milieu. theintroduction tothecatalogue- andon be seenasjusta kindofsmallinstallation.
TW DidyoulikethatwayofRossi'sof topofthatI wasstillhelping myfather out TW Buthaving gonethrough thislong
approaching life,ofnotnecessarily reading withtripsacrossEuropeandAfrica servicing architectural education didyoufeelstimulated
whateveryone elsewasreading, butcoming hismachines. bythediscipline, oratleastcontent athaving
atan ideamoreobliquely? l-cs Busyman. becomeanarchitect?
ms AtthetimeI wasconsidered something ms Well,I wasjusta boyreally. Busyboy. ms No,I neverthought ofbecoming an
ofa traitortotherevolution becauseI wrote l-cs Butofcoursetheotherthing architect,orhaveeverconsidered myself
somearticles arguing thatitwasn'tenoughto youweredoingin1969wasworking as editor a builder.Never. Insteadofanarchitect I am

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 Massimo
Scolari,
TheExterminating 1976
Angel,
Watercolour
onpaper

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 MassimoScolari,
David
Caspar Friedrich theRiesengebirge
Seeking ,1979
Oiloncardboard
linen

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whatyouwouldcallinItalyuncompagno di TW Thisseemstorelatetothatphrase having beenkickedoutofmyfather's house
stradadell'architettura. ofyoursthatcomesupa lotinthetextsby fornotagreeing toworkwithhim.Itwassuch
L-cs Letmetryandtranslate that- some- andaboutyou- 'thecompassoftheeye', a stimulating time, justbefore mymarriage.
onewhogoesalongwitharchitecture, a kind andtheideathatthereexistsa kindofvisual l-cs Ah,so therewasa marriage?
offellow-traveller. equivalent toperfect pitch;thattheeyeis ms Ohyes,forthestatistics, youhaveto
ms Yes,exactly, a fellow-traveller, inthe ultimatelythere to adjudicate onsomething be married whenyouare30yearsold!
sensethatI knowsomething aboutarchitec- andtoassessitsvalue. l-cs Butnochildren?
ture,I'vehadan architectural education, and ms Yes,theeyeis a kindofmachine ms Maybe.
I'vedonea lotofarchitectural editing for andan instrument ofknowledge, notof l-cs What,youcan'tremember!
magazines andcollected a lotofarchitectural information. It'simportant todistinguish ms Well,I couldneverbeentirely sure.
books,butI haveneverreally beenpartofit, between thetwo.Withenoughknowledge - and Anyway, itwasthebestperiodlargely because
orobsessedwithbuilding. a verylargeimagegenerated bya microscope Bonfanti wassucha fantastic friend - very
TW Butyoumusthavehadyourown -youareabletoexamine thenatureofthings in intelligent, very cultivated, very knowledgeable.
obsessions.I meanwe'resitting hereinyour greater depth. Wehada greattime.I hadmethimatthe
homesurrounded byallyourobsessions. TW Butthesethings arenotentirely Politecnico. HewasRogers'assistant, andin
ms Yes,butthesewerealwaysinliterary positivisticandscientific, no?There'salsoan thelate1960s, whenRogersdeveloped thiskind
andpainterly fields. aesthetictothemicroscope, andthealmost ofparalysis - itmusthavebeena sortofms-
TW Butthereareotherobsessionstoo, molecular imagesitproduces? Bonfanti wouldspeakonhisbehalfduring
obsessionswithairplanes, machines andother ms That'sright. I alsohavea hugecollec- hislectures. Andso Bonfanti wasthevoice
devicesthatyoumusthaveinherited partly tionofcompasses, datingfrom thesixteenth ofRogersuntilhisdeathin1969,thesameyear
through yourfather? century uptonow,whichfascinate menot I received mymasters inarchitecture.
ms Yes,that'strue.It'sa sourceofgreat onlybecausethey wereusedtomakedrawings l-cs ButBonfanti himself diedonlya few
irritationtomyarchitect colleagues, thatI'm butalsobecauseaesthetically theyaresuch yearslater?
abletoresolve problems technically. fantasticobjects. ms Yes.Itwasterribly sad.Bonfanti was
l-cs So intheendyouaremaybemoreof TW Canyoujustlistallthethings thatyou sick allthe time. He told me itwas intestinal,
an engineer. Yourfather wouldhavebeenproud. do collect- youmentioned rings, compasses, butsuddenly inthewinter of19721heardfrom
ms Yes,probably, thoughhewasalso magazines, books.Whatelseis there? Portoghesi thatitwasleukaemia. Afterwards
furious becauseI refused toworkwithhimafter ms Well,I amintrigued bypretty muchany Portoghesi decided toclose the Milan officeand
I graduated in1969.ButI neverhadwhatwas instrument thathasbeenusedintheproduc- movethemagazinetoRome.Butbetween 1969
calleda libidoaediflcandi - a kindofwilltobuild tionofdrawings. Thismeansthatinaddition and1972wehadsucha goodtimetogether. To
ordesiretodemonstrate thatI wasanarchitect. toallkindsofpens,frames andplumb-lines a
produce magazine then,without computers,
TW Andyouneverbecameneurotic I'vedeveloped anobsessionwithspectacles and involved a hugeamountoftravelling, telephone
aboutthat;youneverperceived thatas otherglasslenses,because,ofcourse,glasses calls,xeroxing andglue.We'dsendeverything
somekindoffailure? Rather, youenjoyed arethewindow ofyourbrain.Butthen,of offtoBari,wherethepublisher wasbased,and
a kindofelusiveness bynotneedingtoengage course, there are alsoallthebooks- anything thenitcamebackforfinalcorrections andthen
withbuilding? to
relating drawing andpainting from the backagainforprinting. Therewasalwaysthis
ms Yes,I thinkso.So manypeoplehave beginning of the sixteenth century onwards. to-ing andfro-ing becauseitwasa monthly
askedmewhyI'veneverbuilt,butitwasjust l-cs Isyourlibrary stillgrowing? magazine. Portoghesi himself mostly stayedin
something thatneverappealedtome.And ms No,notreally. Collecting oldbookshas Rome,andsowhenhesentus material toput
I'veneverbeena member ofanyprofessional becomeextremely expensive. There wasa time inthemagazinethatwedidn'tlike,wejusthid
architectural body. whenI wasconstantly buying books atWein- itunderthetableandclaimednevertohave
TW Butwearesitting nowinperhaps reb'santiquarian architectural bookshopon received it(sorry Paolo).I remember immedi-
theonlyphysical manifestation ofyourwork- GreatRussellStreet inLondonorWasmuth in ately next to us were the offices of De Donato,
yourhome. BerlinandLägetinParis,butnow,evenifI had another Bari-based publisher specialising in
ms Yes,that'strue,thisis myonlyrealwork themoney, I havenomorespace. translations ofGerman literature. I remember
- thiskindofmagicboxfilled withbooks, TW You'vegotan architectural problem. onceourmonthly chequefrom thepublisher
paintings, sculptures, etc.Butworking onyour ms Always, andinthisparticular case waslateinarriving andsoweheldan enormous
ownhome,restoring thefloors, roofandwalls, a problem ofwallspace.I hada proposaltosell chesscompetition withthegreatGermanist
is notreally architecture, it'sjustsomething mostofmyolderbookstothelibrary atthe Saverio Vertone (editor ofDe Donatoand
thatyousimply havetodo. PalladioCentreinVicenza,butitturnsoutthat ofNuovasocietà) whichlastedweeksandweeks.
l-cs Looking aroundthismagicboxof theydon'thaveanymoney either,so theycan't Thismaybeexplains whytheControspazio
yoursI noticethatyouhavea largemicroscope do it. issuesweproduced werea littleinconsistent.
onyourdesk. l-cs CanwegobacktoControspazio ? TW ButI betyourchessimproved?
ms Oh,a microscope is terriblyimportant. I readsomewhere thatPortoghesi gavea lot ms Bytheendweweregrandmasters!
Without a microscope youcannotunderstand offreedom totheeditorsintherunning of l-cs Didyouhaveanyotherdealingswith
things. themagazine. Howwastheatmosphere in othermagazines? Notnecessarily inItalybut
l-cs Andwhatdoyouseethrough your theoffice,between youandBonfanti andall elsewhere, likeinEnglandwithad ?
microscope? theothers? ms Yes,wehadexchanges andconnections
ms Everything! Forinstance, I collectrings, ms Oh,itwaseasilythebestperiodofmy withmanyEuropeanmagazines inEngland,
andwithout a stereomicroscope youcannot life,starting in1969andendingon13February Spainand in France.
tellifa ringis fakeornot.Onlywitha micro- 1973 when Bonfanti tragically died.Atthattime l-cs I readsomewhere thatwhenPortoghe-
scope,andeventhenwithdifficulty, canyou I waslivingina littleapartment atViaCirco10, si movedthemagazine toRomeyouwereso
distinguish an authenticobject from a copy. just abovethe Brasera Meneghina restaurant, upsetthatyoustoppedtalking toeachother.

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 Massimo TheDepression
Scolari, ofJanus
(withLéonKrier),
1975-79
Pencilandwatercolour
onpaper

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 ms Well,wehadcertain difficulties
in himorganising theexhibition. I remember weight ofthewholepediment?' 'Don'tworry',
communication, andI sawhimonlyrarely after showing ten watercoloursina very uglyalumini- saidMichael,'it'sonlya cardboard shell'.Itwas
1972.Butwedidmeetupjusta fewmonths ago umframe - thatwasmyinterface withthe actually oneofthe first
architectural commis-
intheVatican library - Paolowashosting a party paintersthereinthetriennale, andwith sionsthathe'ddone.Whilethemanstood
theretocelebrate his80thbirthday. Itwasgreat. theotherarchitectsinandaroundtheschool thereholding uphispediment, Michaelfetched
Afterwards weallwenttohishouseandsaw ofarchitecture,
likeJimStirling, LéonKrier a hammer andquickly reattached ittothe
hisamazingzoo.He musthave2,000animals andMichaelGraves. I hadsympathy forGraves house.I understood from thatmoment thatit
there.HiswifewantstodonatethemtoPope becausehewasa painter too.Thefollowing year is notso important tobeabletobuild.
Ratzinger, oratleastjustthebirds. I wenttoPrincetontostaywithhim,andatone l-cs Thisreminds meofKrier 's famous
L-cs Okay, backto1972.Itmusthavebeen pointweweresitting inhisstudiowhenthe mottoaboutnotbuilding precisely because
aroundthistimethatyouwerealsoworking telephonerang.Itwasoneofhisclientscalling hewasanarchitect.
alongsidethepainter Arduino Cantafora? himtodealwithanemergency. Sowejumped ms Thatwasactually myline.I saiditin
ms Cantafora andI met mylecture atYalein1976on
a fewyearsearlier, whileI was 'LaconicArchitecture'. I was
an assistant professor atthe youngthen,andarrogant, and
Politecnico. He isjusta couple itwassaidas a kindofriposte
ofyearsyounger thanmeand toJimStirling. Léon,whois
wascompleting histhesison mybestfriend, hasusedit
eighteenth-century religious himself eversince.
landownership inMilan, l-cs Intheearly1970s,
andI wastherapporteur ofhis before 'LaconicArchitecture',
degree.Atthesametime youweremorefamousforyour
Arduino wasmaking huge 'Avanguardia e nuova
copiesofCaravaggio paintings architettura'essay, whichalso
fora clientofhis.In1972when appearedattheMilanTrien-
I leftRossi'sstudiohecamein nale.Whatwasthestory behind
andtookmyplacewithGianni thistext?
Braghieri. Welosttouchfor ms In19731wasoffered the
decades, wearenowbackin
but chancetocommission a series
contactandvery closefriends. ofbooksforthepublisher
He hasbeena tenured professor FrancoAngeli, andI decided
indrawing attheLausanne thatthefirst ofthesewouldbe
University andhasjustnow notso mucha catalogueof
becomeemeritus. Onmywall thetriennale, buta publication
thereis a painting hedidof ofdrawings andessaysfirst
a rather youthful lookingme. introduced there.Butbefore
Cantafora alwaysremained thistriennale story starts,in
a painter,although as hesaid March19731hadbeenasked
tomeonce,tobecomea painter byJoseph Rykwert towrite
hehadtoworka lot,toperse- anessayontheFlorentine
vere.I'vealwaysappreciated avant-garde fora specialissue
thatdedication andhonesty. onItalyforthemagazine Studio
l-cs After Controspazio International. Andso I wrote
relocated toRomedidn'tyou anarticleonwhatyou'dnow
gobacktoRossiandworkwith calltheItaliansituation, but
himattheMilanTriennale? theEnglishpublisher then
ms That'sright. Although started tosuffer variousdelays
before thishappenedPortoghe- andso I decidedtoputthe
si actuallyoffered tokeepme essay,sinceI haditinhand,
ina satelliteControspazio office intoourowntriennale book,
inMilan.ButI refused - itwould ArchitetturaRazionale .
havefeltlikebeinga war TW Waswriting something
correspondent, reporting backtoanother intohissportscar- 1thinkitwasa Triumph or youfeltcomfortable doing,as muchasyour
office elsewhere. Besides,I wasstilldealing mg- andshotofftohisclient'shouse.When painting andvisualwork?
withthedeathofBonfanti, andI hadleft wearrivedwewereconfronted bythesightofa ms Ohyes,thosefour yearsworking
thePolitecnico inprotest againstthe littlemanstanding inthedoorway ofhishouse, onmagazines meantthatI wasexperienced in
dismissalofthecouncilofthefaculty of holdingthewholeofthepediment architrave writing aboutarchitecture.AndI wasvery
architecture, and,yes,becauseofthe1973 abovehishead.I washorrified.'Howis it informed aboutthecontemporary scene,unlike
MilanTriennale. possiblethatthislittlemancansupport the now,andfeltconfident inbeingabletounder-
l-cs ItwasRossiwhoinvited youtotake standandexpress anopinion.
part in thetriennale? Massimo TW Wasthatyourmandateortaskas
Scolari,
ms Yes,graciously Aldoallowedmetohave descriptive
drawing, a writer,tobea kindofappraiser, tosaythis
a stall,inadditiontomycollaborative workwith Laconic
Architecture,
1983 isgoodorbad?

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 ms I neverthought ofitlikethat,as Dal Co'sbookonHannesMeyer. Tafuri'sanswer goingthrough theend-of-year student evalu-
a task,becausewhenyou'reoffering a critique, wasthatthesecriticisms werewateroffa duck's ationforms, I readthatoneofthempointed
as theetymology ofthewordsuggests, you back,andthathedidn'tfeeltouchedby outthat'manytimesduring pin-upsstudents
arepointing outcertain mistakes. You're thematall.Andso I justturnedonmyheels noticedthatprofessor Scolarihada disgusted
absolutely notsimply saying thisis fantastic andwalkedout,holdingmytrenchcoat and expression onhisface'.WasI really thatbad
orthisis beautiful. Whatyouneedtodo isto Borsalinohat.Thatwastheendofthatidea. atconcealing whatI thought? Inthissense,
helppeopletounderstand howtoavoid in1973,
a fewyearslater,
Butstrangely, Carlo I amtotally unlikeBobStern, thedeanofthe
mistakes. Forme,that'sthetaskofthecritic, Aymonino, who was thedeanoftheInstituto schoolofarchitecture atYale,whois always
becausejustclapping andapplauding doesn't from
diArchitettura
Universitario 1974to1979, so charming andironical, evenifyouknow
helpanybody progress. withtheagreement invited
ofTafuri, meto hedoesn'tagreeatallwithwhatheis seeing.
TW Butmaybethatalsoreveals your teachattheiuav.Andsowealwayshadthis Forme,ifI disagreemyfacegivesitaway.I have
pedagogical side.I meanthere'ssomething strangelove/hate
relationship. a Canadianassistant atYalecalledTimothy
quiteprofessorial aboutsomeone Newton andhecantellimmedi-
whosetaskistopointoutfailings. atelywhenI don'tlikesomething.
ms Thisisgetting complicated! Hejustkicksmeunderthetable
Butyes,you'reright. Immediately andsays,'Massimo,don'tgothere.
after1968,pedagogical issues, Don'tdo theface.'Buttheproject
ideological issuesandarchitectural I wassetting wasdifficult (The
issuesallbecamestrongly entwined Architecture oftheLimitinthe
- intotalcontrast totoday. Butat Venetian Arsenale'), andmany
thattimean ideological position students didnotgraspthepoint
wasan important partofyour becauseofa failure ofknowl-
activitiesas a professor, as a writer, edge. Students now havea huge
a polemicist orspeaker, and amountofinformation butalmost
everybody felta kindofmoralduty noknowledge. Thisis oneofthe
tospeakagainstwhattheythought thingsI amalwaysdiscussing with
wasunjust, untrue orinappropriate. BobStern- toraisethelevelofthe
Ideology was used as a wayto starting point,becausewithout a
interpret present thepast.
the and knowledge of the or
grammar syn-
Yousawthisespecially inthemore taxofarchitecture allyoucansayis
literature
leftist ofthetime,where 'I likeit'or'I don'tlikeit'.Butyour
ideology wassprinkled aroundlike questionis stillinteresting because
parsley - 1mean that! Marx wasused ifteaching is nowaboutfinding
likea garnish, likea sprigofparsley waystobattlewithstudents who
ormint.I remember inVeniceinthe knowlessandless,thenI think
early1970s Manfredo Tafuri and I'mnotreally a fanofteaching.
Georges Teyssot - who was a kindof WhatI likedoingis analysing and
charismatic d'Artagnan figure - were engaging inhistorical research.
alwayslecturing on Ledoux or InthepastI studiedforeightyears
Lequeuthrough references toMarx intheMilanarchives, exploring
andEngels.Thisreading seemed theevolution ofthecityduring
totallynormalthen,anditwasa real thereignofMariaTheresaand
engagement withpoliticsthatthey theNapoleonic period.Therewas
allabsolutely believedin.I mean, thousands oftonnesofarchival
I remember goingtotheSoviet material togothrough there.
Unionin1975andseeingthatpeople l-cs Soyouarepatient really.
therestillreally believedinthe ms Yes,I amterribly patient
revolution, initspromise tobring whenI'mdrawing andwhen
thema newlife.Andwhenthewall I'mstudying, butifI havea student
collapsedin1989they justcouldn't whoneverreturns theballinthe
comprehend it.I remember right direction, thenI say,'Listen,
GianugoPolesellobehaving as ifhis ifyouwant playtennisthenyou
to
worldhadjustcollapsed.Fora lotofthe TW Didyoualsohavea love/hate relation- havetolearnhowtohittheball',
Venetian designers andscholars, thisideology shipwiththeactofteaching itself? orevenjusttoknowthatlearning something
formed a kindofshieldorumbrella under ms No,as I mentioned before,teachingfor is a tiringandexhausting exercise, andthatyou
whicha dogmaofsortsstarted todevelopwhich was
peopleofmygeneration alwayspresented cannotexercise properly justbyusingthe
didn'tallowforanykindofexperimentation or as a kindofethicalduty.Although personally, like
internet, swallowing somemagicpill.
discussion. I remember in1969or1970coming I do findthatI sometimes geta bitimpatient TW Butas muchas tennis, thisagainseems
toVenicetotryandstirthisupa little, propos- whenteaching. atYale,whenI was
Justrecently tobetheparadigm ofthemicroscope andof
ingtoTafuri thathisContropiano groupshould patient scientificenquiry?
collaborate morewithPortoghesi andus on Massimo ms Yes,I mustsaythatifsomeonewasto
Scolari,
Controspazio , even though I had recentlywritten from
studies notebook, recognise mybestgiftitwouldbeforexactitude
somepiecesthatwerecritical ofFrancesco laconica
Architettura ,1983 andprecision.

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 MassimoScolari,
TheCollector's
Room ,1986
Inkandwatercolour
onpaper

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 L-cs Andyoucanseethatinyourpaintings? witha friend ofmineaboutthisEuropean slope.IntheendI remember itproduced ten
ms I hopeso.I always getnervous and model- thebiologist KonradBlochwho really good student projects. One of them was
worried whenI seean imprecise orinexact sadly died a few yearsago.He hadstudiedin LizDiller.Shewasvery, very good.
attitude indrawing, whichis really an impreci- Germany, and in 1934fledtoDavos,Switzer- TW Havingtaught inalloftheseschools
sioninthinking. land,before moving totheus in1936,research- anddoneinnumerable juriesallovertheplace,
TW Despiteyourhesitancy aboutfitting inghowcholesterol wasformed andprocessed. whatwouldbeyourtemplate fortheperfect
within a classictemplate ofa generous self- Atthattime,between thetwoworldwars, Scolarischoolofarchitecture?
sacrificing teacher, your whole career has been a hugenumber ofscientific discoveries were ms Itshouldbe a boldschool,witha very
punctuated bystints teaching indifferent cities, beingmade,partly as a consequence ofthe educatedfaculty andwitha really demanding
indifferent schools,indifferent countries, from rigour oftheoldPrussian judgemental model. selection forentry, seeking outonlythose
thispost-Controspazio periodonward. Teaching Butas Konradexplained, ifyoueverquestioned students witha realpassion.
iswhatyoudo.You'vehadprofessorships all thevalidity ofyourprofessor's opinionthen l-cs Howdoyoutestforpassion?
overtheplace,notonlyinItalybutinBarcelona, youwouldbe totally ostracised. He contrasted ms After 50yearsoflooking atdrawings it
Vienna,andintheus withCooperUnion, thiswiththeAmerican model,saying thatwhile takesmeonlya fewsecondstoseeifsomebody's
Cornell, Harvard andnowYale. inSwitzerland before thewarhewrotetoa us gifted ornot.Intheend,it'slikemusicschool.
ms That'strue,butyouknowteaching scientist inNewYorkexplaining whyhewas Youhavetohearthestudents singDo-Re-Mi-
inthissenseis likea marriage. Youarehoping questioning hisresearch. Thescientist replied, Fa-So-La-Ti-Do tounderstand iftheycanhold
allthetimetofindtheidealwoman.Some- 'Very good,cometoUnitedStates,andhelp a tune.
times,ofcourse, yougetlucky, butothertimes uswithourresearch'. He went,andendedup TW Butyoumusthaveencountered
youarenotso lucky andsoyoukeepgoing. winning theNobelPrizein1964.Andthisis the architecture students orevenfellow architects
Peoplegetmarried fiveorsixtimes,andare difference between thetwomodels.Teaching whoaregreat, articulate andfullofideas,but
criticised forthis- butthey're justlookingfor architecture in the us youcannotjudge whocan'tdraw?
hopelessperfection. students, you have to helpthemtoraise,let's ms Yes.PeterEisenman. Andalthough
TW Theremusthavebeensomething about say,the level at which theycanoperate, and Peteris clearly a one-off, itusedtobea charac-
someoftheseschools you that found fulfilling basically be a kind of coach. That requires teristicofarchitectural education 20yearsago
orrewarding? a lotofpatienceanda lotofunderstanding and thatyouwouldgetvery cultivated, theoretical,
ms Theideaofa schooldiffers from place a lotofcuriosity aboutsomebody else'swork. philosophical students whohadnotalentwhat-
toplace.InEurope,andinparticular Italy, the Andyoualsohavetoenterintothemind soever. Usually theycamefrom very classical
architecture schoolis a massivething, I mean ofthestudent, tohelphimavoidallthoselittle high schools. But today these students don't
inthe1970ssomeoftheclasseshadover mistakes. Although havingsaidthat,I like seemtoexistanymore.Todaystudents don't
1,000students. Intheus classesareoften just mistakes - theyshowthatthefirst ideais not read.I'malwaystelling my Yale students that
tenstudents. This,as expected, produces dif- always the best. whentheyreada booktheyhavetokeepgoing
ferent results. Ofcourse,tenHarvard orYale l-cs Is thiswhyyoudecidednottoteach untiltheyfeela slightheadachecomingon,
students areoftenreally good,andyoucansee inItalyanymoreandinsteadonlyintheus? becausethisisthemoment thebrainis telling
theirabilitiesimmediately. With1,000students ms No,I resigned from myprofessorial you that itis receiving knowledge andgrowing.
you know that after a while a groupofsurvivors in
position Italy in 2000 becauseintheBerlusco- Ifyoudon'tgettheheadacheit'spointless.
willform, auto-selected, amongthem
and nieratherewasnohopeofeffecting anyreal l-cs Howdoyoudealwiththecomputer
you willoften findan exceptionally goodpupil, change. I don't know ifthe situation is any inyourclasses?
better thanthetenIvyleaguestudents. Inthe different nowwithMarioMonti, butformeit ms Byunplugging it!Theyhavetodo all
massiveschoolsthereistherefore a little stillseemsthatinItalythearchitecture schools theirdrawings byhand.I thinkthecomputer
moreserendipity - goodstudents areableto aresuffering. isvery destructive becauseitobligesa student
overcome allkindsofdifficulties before they l-cs Whatwereyouteaching inItaly? todo something theydon'twanttodo,and
canfully present themselves. ms Atthevery beginning I wasteaching italsorequires toomuchprecision tooearly
TW Yourlonginvolvement witharchitec- something calledDrawing andSurveying, intheprocess.Agoodideashouldcomeout
turaleducation hasalsoseentheideaof although thenameis notso important. Later ofincertitude. Withme,students canonlyuse
education change.Before itwasa constant - I taught TheoriesandMethodsofRepresenta- thecomputer foremails- to'stayconnected',
therewasonlyonemodelofarchitectural tion,whichformemeanttenyearsteaching asyou'dsay.Although I mustadmitthatmy
education - butoverthelast30yearsorso every Egyptian systems ofrepresentation. former assistant inVenicerecently showedme
schoolnowadvertises itsowninterpretation of TW IntheSkirabookyouillustrate a course a newCatiaprogram thatallowedyoutodraw
whatan architectural education canbe.Sowhat youtaught atCooperUnionin1978called anderasefreehand withanelectronic pencil,
mustdistinguish a goodschoolfrom a bad 'TheDeniedModel',whichseemedtobe more andthenthecomputer arranges everything
schoolis nownotonlythestudents butalsothe ofa designbrief as wewouldunderstand itnow, symmetrically. Butstill,evenwithprograms
educational modelthateachschoolpromotes. rather thana history ofrepresentation. likethis,wouldyoureally liketodenyyourself
ms Therearetwototally different educa- ms WhatI didatCooperwasa little thepleasuresofsharpening yourpencil,
tionalmodels.InEurope,oratleastinGerma- different. I wasteaching a studioclassnota ofusingbrushes, ofsmelling theturpentine.
ny,Switzerland, ItalyandSpain,theprofessor history,andI didn'twanttodowhatHejdukor l-cs Andsoyourperfect school would
is a judge.He is a veryknowledgeable butalso Abraham orSlutzky wasdoing- thatis,askthe beanalogue?
verypompousperson, whoata certainpoint students doto whatever they wanted.So I tried ms Itwouldbeconstrained inonegeneral
seeswhatthestudent hasdoneandsays'this toseta programme thatdeniedcertain things even I
direction, thoughappreciate thevast
isgood' or 'thisis not good,throw itaway'. -youcouldnotdopilotis ,ora flatroof, etc- choiceofdifferent styles and tastes and
Thistypically academicattitude haslastedfor andonlymadeonethingavailable- theyhad pedagogies that Bob Stern offers at Yale.But
centuries andproducesgoodresultsandbad tolocatetheirbuilding ona limitorboundary, yes, itwould resist theproducts of recent digital
results atthesametime.I wasspeaking once forexample, besidea river orona mountain architecture - allthosewhipped creamcakes

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that3Dprinters produce.Students nowseem understand thelimitsandproperties of ms Theprocessofmaking thesethings
tocarry modelsoftheseawfulblobsaround different materials.Thatis myjob,myprofes- doesn'trequirea professionalassignation and
withthemlikesomekindofbelovedpet.But, sion.Andsowhensomeoneasksmeata party is actually - 1
verysimple paintsomething from
again,Yaleis interesting becauseitsorigins whatitis thatI do,I nolongertalkabout myimagination andthensomebody says,'Why
areas an artschool,anditstillhasstrong links mypainting, orwriting, orscientificresearch, don'twebuildit?'AndI say,'Okay, ifyouwant
tothefineartculture andmaybeonedayalso I simply 'Madam,
say, I am a teacher'. tobuilditwecan.Wecanbuildanything'. Of
withthefineartdepartment whichis rightnext L-cs Andyouneverreply, 'Madam,I am thesebuiltworksareseentosig-
course,later,
door.Whatseemsimportant tomeinany anarchitect'? nify somenewkindofarchitectural movement
schoolofarchitecture is tomakethestudents ms No,never. I'veneverbeenanarchitect - thiswholepostmodern thing,forexample,
understand therelationship between the noreverwantedtobeone.It'sjustnotmything. withtheGatefora Maritime Citywebuiltatthe
drawing andtherealthing. Thisiswhywhen- I cannotsay,likePalladio,thateversinceI was firstVenicearchitecturalbiennalein1980- but
everI seta projectformystudents I askthem a childI'vehada natural callingtowards I neverconceivedtheseworksinthatway.
also,as partoftheirdesignproposal, to architecture.Forme,itwasalwayspainting that l-cs Andyetdespitethis,justrecently, with
construct a chair- a realchair,in1:1scale,and interested me. thePompidou's 'La Tendenza'exhibition in
withwoodormetal,plasticsandfabrics. Inthe l-cs Despitethisrejection oftheprofes- scholars
particular, andcurators aremoreand
endtheyhavetobeabletositontheirchairand sion,therehavebeena number ofoccasions morefocusing onwhattheyseeas yourown
becomfortable, becauseultimately thechair whenyourpainterly workintwodimensions postmodernism.
offersanextreme pointofcontact, ofconfronta- hasbeentransformed intothreedimensions ms Thewordla tendenza literallymeans
tionbetween theidea(thedrawing) andreality - I'mthinking ofallthoseinstallations you trendorgroup, andhadbeenusedmanytimes
(thebody).Asyouarediscovering, theTobias havebuiltinvariousbiennalesandtriennales before mebyallsortsofdifferent people,
Scarpasofaonwhichyouaresitting getsvery overtheyears, thegliderwings, orlightning including ErnestoRogers andAldoRossi,but
uncomfortable after twohours.I wantstudents bolts,orfacades, doorsandarksthatappear noweveryone identifiesmy'Avanguardia e
toappreciate thesethings andtohelpthem as ifphysicalmanifestations ofa drawing? nuovaarchitettura'essayas thesource.Itwas

MassimoScolari,
studyforthesculpture ,located
Wings on
theFondamenta
dellaTana,Venice
Architecture
Biennale,1991
Watercolour
oncardboard

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really justa form ofshorthand, a waytosaveme uptotheconcierge andaskedhimifheknew anonymous; thereis noindication anywhere
from always writingAymonino, Grassi, Reichlin, theman'sname.He saidhewasanarchitect from thatsaysI designedthem.Atthetimepeople
Reinhart andRossi.Forpeoplenowtoendlessly LondoncalledLubetkin. I said,'Berthold cameupwithallsortsofunflattering namesfor
talkabouttendenza ornottendenza is absurd. Lubetkin! Mygod!' I had been a fan of Lubetkin's them, but I guess, over theyears, they'vegot
AfewyearsagoI keptgetting letters from a workforyearsandyears.I thenquickly walked usedtothem.Theyarenowa sortoflogoforthe
SouthAmerican architect askingmeifI would uptohimandsaid,'MrLubetkin, woulditbe school,oratleastpartofitslandscape.Simi-
consider hima member ofLa Tendenza. Itwas possibletohaveaninterview withyou?',because larly, thethunderbolt I didfortheItaliapavilion
crazy, as ifI wasthegatekeeper ofa movement, atthattimeI waspublishing themagazine atthe2004biennaleis nowinfront ofthecivic
thepassport controller ofa country I had Eidos.He said,'Whynot.I havea meeting atthe museuminRivadelGarda.Whenever the
supposedly discovered. Technische Universität tomorrow at12.Come windsurfers theregettogether theysay'Let's
L-cs So it'sjustas innocent as that? andseemeafterwards.' So I wenttotheuniversity meetinfront ofthebolt.'
ms Well,lateritbecamemythologised, andthereI found thearchitect LuigiBlauasking l-cs Andso ithasbecomea symbol.
mainly byTafuri, whoinoneofhisbooks Lubetkin allthesedumbquestions - 'Mr TW Andinbecoming a civicreference
erroneously writesthat'MassimoScolaritold Lubetkin, weren't youinBerlin in1921?', towhich it'stherefore a proper pieceofarchitecture.
methatLa Tendenzawasa kindofDadaist Lubetkin replied,'Yes,I wastherein1921'. Blau l-cs Soyoureally arean architect.
attitude'. Thiswasabsolutely notthecase, thenasked,'DidyouknowthatElLissitzky was ms No,I'mjusta lucky teacher.
butintheenditkindofbecamethecase.Itivas alsoinBerlin in1921?' Lubetkin justreplied, TW Butthefactthatwekeepwondering
a Dadaistattitude. Anditreminds meofan 'No,but,youknow, I didn'tgetthechancetomeet whoandwhatyouareis interesting, no?And
encounter many yearsagoinSwitzerland. everybody whowasinBerlin in1921.' I feltthesamesenseofconfusion oruncertainty
Somearchitects hadinvited a very oldGerman TW I canunderstand yourresistance tothat whenreadingyour book.Becauseinonesense,
member oftheNovembergruppe tovisit.Soon sortoftotalising knowledge andalsototheidea after looking atallthosewonderful paintings
after hearrived somebody askedhimifhecould ofthegroup, orallofthesearchitectural labels andreadingyour variousessays,I couldvery
explaintheorigins ofthenametheNovember- andcategories andallegiances thathaveformed. easilygoalongwithRossiwhosaid,inthenicest
gruppeandwhatitreally meant.He simply Butthesourceofallofthistribalism isthebien- possibleway,thatyouwerea non-conformist,
replied, 'Listen, today we are sitting hereby nale- 1meanthebiennaleas a generalphenom- thatyouwereanti-academic andthatyouwere
thislake,talking aboutarchitecture, andatthis enonandnotnecessarily theVeniceBiennale; allaboutdestruction anda loveofdestruction.
moment weareinthemonthofMarch.Ifyou allthesejamborees thatseemtobetaking place Andyetinanother sense,as you'vedescribed
gentlemen wanttocallthisgrouptheMarch indifferent citiesallofthetime.Andsoyour are
it,you highly academic, youarerigorous and
Group of course youcan'. owninvolvement withtheearlybiennales and do
you speak with a certain insistence about
l-cs What,though, doyouthinkofthe triennales insomewaysshowsyoutobean theimportance ofhistory andofyourresponsi-
renewed interestinthesearchitects, however almostprototypical contemporary architect. bilities as a teacher.
you like to group them? And do you think this Youareina waythepatron saintofcontempo- ms Sigmund! WhatcanI say?I clearly need
interest isjustified? rary architecture.No biennale is a true biennale to get onto a couch. I have all ofthequalities
ms I thinkit'sgoodthatpeoplearetaking unlesstherearesomewingsofyours, oranark andallofthedefects ofa typical historical
an interest inthisperiod, whentherewasall ora lightning boltattached toa pavilion. architect. AmI a painter ora furniture designer?
thisinterplay between architects andhistory ms Thisinterview isgoingtobe my AmI a researcher, ora scientist? AmI a writer
andpolitics. Andofcoursethismoment is not tombstone! Although, I mustsaythatfor ora polemicist? IntheendI don'tknow.I am
simply interesting for itsItalian architects. a moment yesterday, when I was at the opening what I am. And I amwhatI do.Inthissense
TherewerealltheAmericans too- people ofthisyear'sbiennale, I feltsadbecause I can'toffer a waytoresolve thesecontradictions.
likeRichard MeierandMichaelGraves, who I suddenly realisedthatI couldhavebeenthere. Butperhapsthesearen'tcontradictions
I remember wasespecially kind.He cametomy Maybeevenas anarchitect. After all,in1986 atall.Perhapsit'smoretodowith,let'ssay,
houseonceandsatdownona chair.'Whatkind RafaelMoneoinvited metoteachatHarvard a complexity ofabilities.
ofchairis this?'heasked.'That,Michael', I said, notas a painter butas anarchitect. Andin2002 L-cs Acomplexity andcontradiction
'is a Biedermeier chair'.'Biedermeier?', hesaid, I entered an architectural competition fora new inarchitecture?
'Whatis Biedermeier?' I repliedthatBiedermei- museuminCairoandourteamcamethirdout ms Yes,exactly. Thatwouldmakea good
erwasthegoodMrMeier, whoafter Napoleon of1,600orso entries. Butthen,as another titlefora book.
responded tohowfedupeveryone waswithall friend ofminesaidtomerecently, 'Forget it
thewarsandfighting bymaking really comfort- Massimo, youhavenopassionatalltobe
ablefurniture, without anyornamental bronze anarchitect, you'dabsolutely hatesitting in
embellishments. Soonafterwards, allofthe front ofa computer alldaylong.'
furniture Graves designedhimself started to l-cs Butthewingsyoubuiltforthe1991
resemble theseBiedermeier pieces. biennalearestillhereinthecity, having been
l-cs Andwhataboutothermembers ofthe relocated tothetopoftheVeniceschoolof
NewYorkFive?In1973, forexample, Richard architecture. They've beensitting therefor21
MeiercametotheMilanTriennale, andMichael yearsnow.
Graves andJuliaBloomfield werealsovisitors. ms Oh,butthey'll collapseoneday.
ms WhatcanI say?I understand thatpeople I remember whentheywerefirst installed all
arevery curioustohearfantastic stories about theotherprofessors werefurious - 'WhyScolari
allthesearchitects ... butperhaps I cananswer andnotme?',eventhough theyaretotally
onlywithanother story. I wasoncewalking bythe
WandlHotelinViennawhenI lookedinand Massimo Scolari,
noticed a mangobyina wheelchair witha very Findthat
IfWeCould GodDidNotExist
,1989
interesting, intelligentface. So I entered andwent Watercolour
oncardboard

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