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As temperatures begin to warm up and we start picturing the lazy park hangs and beach days in store for us this summer, our minds have already started whirring at the reading possibilities. Over the past year, we've turned to reading as both an escape from our current world and a way to explore without leaving home. While we'll be a bit more mobile this summer, our love for books hasn't changed, so we've once again tapped Jynne Dilling Martin associate publisher at Riverhead Books, and Lisa Lucas, senior vice president and publisher of Pantheon and Schocken Books, to help craft the ultimate summer reading list of books written by women. Whether you're itching for a Greek myth retelling, a workplace thriller, a deep dive into the natural world, or a novel about a cannibalistic food writer, we've got you covered.
A reminder to order any of the books that make it on your must-read list this summer from your local bookseller or one of these Black bookstores across the U.S.—or from Bookshop.org, which gives money from sales for independent bookstores.
Here's a full list of what we talked about:
- Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer
- Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard
- The Hard Crowd by Rachel Kushner
- A Certain Hunger by Chelsea G. Summers
- Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel
- Salvation City, by Sigrid Nunez
- Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter by Ali Smith
- Sisters by Daisy Johnson
- Circe and Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller
- The Copenhagen Trilogy by Tove Ditlevsen
- The Other Black Girl by Zakiya Dalila Harris
- Matrix by Lauren Groff
- Seek You by Kristen Radtke
- Intimacies by Katie Kitamura
- No One is Talking About This by Patricia Lockwood
Thanks to Lisa and Jynne for joining us once again and thanks, as always, to Brett Fuchs for engineering and mixing this episode. As a reminder, you can listen to new episodes of Women Who Travel on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, every Wednesday.
All products featured on Condé Nast Traveler are independently selected by our editors. If you buy something through our retail links, we may earn an affiliate commission.
Read a full transcription of the episode below.
Lale Arikoglu: Hi everyone and welcome to Women Who Travel, a podcast from Conde Nast Traveler. I am Lale Arikoglu and with me as always, is my co-host Meredith Carey.
Meredith Carey: Hello.
LA: This week, we're joined by two of our very, very favorite guests, Jynne Dilling Martin, associate publisher at Riverhead Books, and Lisa Lucas, senior vice president and publisher of Pantheon and Schocken Books, to talk all things, well, books. As usual, all of the book recommendations we're discussing today have been written by women and will offer great company on trips, big and small, hopefully as you get back out there into the world this summer. Thank you so much for joining us, Lisa and Jynne.
Lisa Lucas: Thanks for having us again. This is always the most fun.
Jynne Dilling Martin: Totally, so good to be back.
MC: As usual, I'm going to throw it to you, Jynne, first. What has been one of your favorite books to read recently?
JDM: Okay, so Meredith I think this will be especially up your alley, I hope. But let me preface this by saying: I have never as an adult stayed in America for an entire calendar year, much less stayed in one place, which has been the Catskills for a whole year. And it turns out what has happened to me is I basically am becoming Ralph Waldo Emerson and I apologize in advance for this. It's the transformation that is underway. But when as an adult, have you slept without an alarm clock and just woken up with the light every day? And it's gotten me very in the mood for nature books.
My top book recommendation today is a book that's kind of, I think it's a sleeper cult classic. It's called Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. It is incredible. She is a member of the [Citizen] Potawatomi Nation. She's a botanist and a naturalist and this is just an incredible book about nature as friend and teacher, and I have to read this one quote because it describes exactly the year we've all just had, which is, "When you have all the time in the world, you can spend it not on going somewhere, but on being where you are." And it's very much about really literally seeing the roots and the moss and the stones and the trees in such a different way. And it was a really profound book, it's underlining on every page. Two thumbs up.
MC: I feel like this summer is going to be the summer of tree books for me. There is this book that was mentioned in, I think it was the New York Times Magazine, called Finding the Mother Tree, discovering how the forest is wired for intelligence and healing by Suzanne Simard. And it's about how trees and old growth forests create a network and community through their roots and how they communicate with each other and communicate with other plants and how they might actually feed each other, depending on the circumstances of the environment. And after I read that story, which will be linked in the show notes, I got so excited because this woman's book is coming out later this summer and she is the leading scientist who's been doing this work, really proving that when you cut one tree down in a forest, it affects the entire forest. Greenery might be the theme of my summer reading for sure.
JDM: I love it. Yeah, and she is not just a tree scientist, she's like the...
MC: She's the tree scientist.
JDM: Tree scientist. Yes, that one's going to be so exciting.
MC: Lisa, what have you been enjoying? And does it relate to trees in any way?
LL: Yeah, it does not really trees in any way whatsoever. I just started a new job since the last time that we talked on the podcast and I've been reading an enormous number of manuscripts and catching up on books that are publishing out. My reading has been still kind of pandemic staccato and so essays and short fiction have been really my wheelhouse still. Right now I'm reading Rachel Kushner's The Hard Crowd. And I feel like people think of Rachel Kushner so much about her extraordinary fiction: The Flamethrowers, The Mars Room, Telex from Cuba. She's just this beautiful writer. And she really just knows how to absorb you into the universe that she's describing, but the links are never as straightforward as you think that they would be, but they read like they are. And she's really good at bringing you along.
And it's been so refreshing to read these essays, which are a mix of personal essay and criticism and politics. I keep thinking years ago, I talked to Rachel about, we were just talking about mass incarceration and she was like, “I'm a prison abolitionist.” And this was years ago before we were like defund the police, defund the carceral industrial complex. And she wrote this extraordinary essay for the New York Times Magazine, maybe a year or two ago about Ruthie Wilson Gilmore, who's kind of the godmother of prison abolition. And so that essay's in there and it's just extraordinary to reread it in this context where the whole political world has changed. But then there's also stuff about Marguerite Duras and stuff about growing up. And it's really kind of the whole catastrophe, in a good way where you're just kind of you're able to dip in and out. And sometimes it's just a brilliant woman talking about the world. And sometimes it's about a brilliant woman talking about her politics. And sometimes it's about the art and culture that we're consuming. And it really was the perfect kind of [thing for] carrying me through a lot of different frames.
MC: Lale, what has been a book that has been your taste as a reader?
LA: I have been going through such waves of intense reading and then suddenly completely hitting a wall and struggling. And I think that is just from a year of being in the same place with a lot of screen time and then not much else. And just my attention span is shot. But recently I have been able to go through, fly through some books and one of them was a really wild one called A Certain Hunger by Chelsea G. Summers. The premise being, without giving too much away, the protagonist of the book is a woman who is a very well regarded food critic and lesser known cannibal. And it takes the reader to Italy, it takes the reader through some of the finest restaurants in New York and hotels, many of which I think, if you also read Conde Nast Traveler, you will be familiar with a lot of the places that appear in this book.
In the acknowledgements she says that she read both American Psycho and Eat, Pray, Love, when she was doing research for the book and I do think it is a perfect amalgamation of those two things. And some of it is incredibly gruesome and graphic in ways that I'm not usually used to in the fiction I read. If you're squeamish, I'm not quite sure whether it's the book for you, but it is also hilarious. And the food writing is just exquisite and the food writing informs the cannibalism, to put it lightly. I can't stop thinking about it.
JDM: I was trying not to laugh, but that's...
MC: I sent this book to Lale to be like, I don't think I can read this because I am very squeamish, but I think you should and just let me know how you enjoy it, so I'm very glad you're bringing it up and that it made the cut for you.
LA: Yeah, it's her debut novel. I was very intrigued after you sent me that Times review and it is just sort of outlandish and quite ridiculous at points, but in a way that is, I think, fun to read because it is a woman writing it. And she's using techniques that I think we're very used to seeing male authors use. And it was really fun. There were points where I'd turn the page and I'd just be like, oh my God.
MC: My first suggestion, Lale is probably going to laugh... If you follow me on Instagram or friends with me in real life, you have probably heard about the battle I did with this book, which is Wolf Hall. Started and stopped it three times. It is about Thomas Cromwell, who was Henry the VIII's advisor, I guess you could say. And it's about his life. And it is so in the weeds. When I say so in the weeds, I mean so in the weeds. If you do not have an attention span right now, do not read this book. If you do not have a lot of time on your hands, do not read this book. If you like me were sitting at home for a week and couldn't go anywhere because you were in quarantine, this book is for you because once you get into it, get into the writing style, realize that all of the tiny details that you think are pointless are actually relevant, you'll speed through it. The third time was the charm for me, I've already finished the second book, which is Bring Up the Bodies and I'm onto the third.
As someone who basically only knew about Anne Boleyn, when it came to Henry the VIII, finding it super interesting, actually learning things about history, but it's also super fictional. I highly recommend it if you have a lot of time and a strong attention span at this moment, because otherwise just put this on your TBR for later.
LA: I will say without Meredith making it sound like it is an incredibly dry, boring book, because it really isn't.
MC: It's not. It's not. People warned me ahead of time that the beginning is hard. It's not a writing style I was used to. It was again, super in the weeds. Once you get into it, I can't stop now and I have to finish the third book and then read her 1,500 page book about the French Revolution.
LA: One of my favorite books. Talked about on this very podcast.
MC: I'm on the Hilary Mantel train now. It's good. You just, you got to stick with it.
JDM: People love these books. I had never heard this warning before though, so it's good to know.
LA: They're incredibly immersive, but it is kind of like we've talked about in terms of science fiction when there's sort of a level of world building and I think that's what a Hilary Mantel does as well, except she is recreating a very complex moment in history. But once it clicks, then you're just lost in it.
MC: The first book is about Catherine of Aragon and the beginning of Anne Boleyn. The second book is mostly about Anne Boleyn so if you're a big Anne Boleyn fan, that was when it really hooked me. And now we're getting into Jane Seymour and Catherine Parr and those are women that I don't know a lot about. As someone who was so excited to see Six: The Musical, which is a rock pop musical about Henry the VIII's wives, which was supposed to open the day that Broadway closed, this is filling that hole for me. But it is in no way like a rock pop musical.
Jynne, back to you. We're going to circle back around, what would you like to talk about next?
JDM: Well, I feel like we were going to touch on beach reads because like the weather is heating up, the flowers are out. It was 70 degrees here two days ago, which is almost swimhole weather, not quite, but I can feel it. I can feel it. My propulsive page turning pick, first of all, it's a little bit of a throwback. I think it was one year ago, one of you was trying to get everyone to read Gold Fame Citrus, which is about one version of the end of the world. And I was like, I can't no, no, don't make people read this right now. We can't handle this emotionally. Now that we've been through a year, we've made it, we've done it so I have a little bit of a in that vein mood book and it is for anyone who's a Sigrid Nunez fan, she actually won the National Book Award under Lisa's tenure at the National Book Foundation. I've read more recent Sigrid, but there's an earlier book of hers I had not read and I finally picked it up. It's called Salvation City and it is about a global pandemic and the aftermath in America of the global pandemic. And when I tell you Sigrid predicted nursing homes being hit first, she predicted evangelicals denying that they needed a vaccine. She predicted fashion masks. There are fashion masks in this novel where people put cool stuff and slogans on their mask. My jaw was on the floor. Page after page, I was like, Sigrid knew this was coming a decade ago. She knew a decade ago.
LL: If anybody was gonna, it's going to be her.
JDM: Of course. Of course. Now I'm terrified. Now I have to read everything else Sigrid wrote way back in early Sigrid days, just in case there's other things she knows are coming. But it's definitely sort of a Cormac McCarthy The Road, what happens after the pandemic is over to the people all left behind? And it's similar to us now. A lot of people are still left, but there's a lot of loss. And how does the world reconfigure after this? And I'd say it's very interesting and instructive at this moment, and also page turnery.
LA: It's really funny that you mentioned that book because I think the New Yorker published something recently about it.
JDM: Yes. That's what made me, I was like shit, I really should go finally read this.
LA: I keep looking for it in bookstores and it's not there. Other novels are on the shelf and that book isn't there and I've been, I'm going to have to just order it online and have it delivered because I can't find it. And I also feel like I'm ready to read that type of book and I don't know what that says about where I've landed mentally. I don't know if it's that I'm no longer in denial of what's happened, which I think I was for a long time.
JDM: Totally, totally.
LA: Or if it's because I can now envision life after this, I'm able to give myself a bit of emotional distance. But yeah, I can't believe you brought that book up because that's really just been on my list of what I want to read next.
JDM: I will mail you my copy. How's that?
LA: Oh God, personal touch.
MC: Are there any beach reads—we've talked about in the podcast before how beach read is literally any book—but Lisa, is there any book that you've read recently that you think would make a particularly good beach read?
LL: Yeah, well so I'm pre-planning my beach reads because I have all this reading to catch up on. All these books we've published. And so I hadn't read Ali Smith's “Seasonal Quartet.” And I feel in the summer, I often like a series, even if it's sad or it's wander-y, I really want to stay with a voice and sit down and really plow through it. I am currently checking out Spring and I'm going to kind of move in the seasons and maybe through them even when I'm in summer. But I love that idea. This summer is going to be such a change. People are getting vaccinated here in the U.S., not everywhere, but here in the US we're getting vaccinated. The sun is looking like it might come out and I think that it's just this big time of reflection.
I think one of the things, and this is not about the book, forgive me for waxing on for a little bit. But it's everybody's talking about how hard it is to come out. It is. It's hard to come out. We've had to close down all these bits of ourselves to be inside, to be isolated. And I think that we haven't had a lot of time to think about it. There's been an insurrection, a pandemic, an election, an uprising, the trial of our lives for our lives playing out right now. There's all this stuff. And I don't think we've dealt with it. And I think just thinking about time and what it means throughout history, throughout literature, throughout our lives—which is I think a lot of what Ali's doing—feels really nourishing. And again, I love that idea of being able to stay with a voice and the fact that she took these seasons that we all experience throughout time. Right. April is the cruelest month. That's something that rings true for people across time. Or the renewal of spring and the clever ways in which she inserts this into the narrative, I think is really special. And so I've been really anchored by reading about time in this way. And I'm excited that there's three more. And then I'm also doing my job because I'll have read something that we published.
MC: Two birds, one stone. Lale, what is a beach read you would recommend?
LA: Well, we've said that anything can be a beach read, so I'm going to say something else that I read recently, which honestly has no beachy vibes to it, but it was so weird and I loved it, which was Sisters by Daisy Johnson.
JDM: Yes.
LA: Which I know, I think we've talked about twins on this podcast before and it is a novel about...
JDM: Spoiler alert, Lale. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine.
LA: Wait, how much can I say?
JDM: I guess you do know she has a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fine.
LA: The title, the title of the book.
JDM: It's true. It's true. I take it back. I pre-panicked because there's an amazing twist in this novel.
LA: There's an amazing twist, which I will not give away. But I do think if someone opens that book and it's like, they're sisters? It would be, they didn't look at the cover.
JDM: Sorry, sorry, everyone. Right. Right.
LA: But now I am terrified to say anymore. Other than it is, I think I'm allowed to say that it is set in England and that am I allowed to say that you could say it's set in a haunted house?
JDM: Yeah. Weird, spooky, haunted house.
LA: Weird, spooky, haunted house. A house that very much is, feels alive in the way that Daisy writes this book. It's also quite a slim novel, which I think if when you are reading by a pool or on the beach or in the park, You can read it in a day. You just fly through it. I couldn't stop thinking about it. It's such a strange little book and I loved it.
JDM: It's so dark and it's worth looking at a photo of her online because she looks like just the cheeriest, sweetest. She looks like she's 11 years old and it's like British curly hair cherubic face. And you're like, this came out of your brain? How? How? Yeah. Great pick. That's a good one.
MC: The other suggestions for beach reads I would make are both by Madeline Miller and its Circe and Song of Achilles. They're both retellings of Greek myths and they’re so good. And again, as we talked about, so easy to read in one sitting or two sittings. Also, you don’t have to know a ton, or anything really, about Greek mythology to get into these. Song of Achilles follows Patroclus and his bond with Achilles long before the Trojan War is in the picture. Just talking about this is also making me want to watch Brad Pitt as Achilles in Troy. But back to books: Circe is part of a small section of the Odyssey where Odysseus and his men come across this witch on an island and in the myth, she turns them all into pigs. And that's not a spoiler because hopefully we all read some of the Odyssey in middle school. But this book is from her perspective. All of these men come to her island, she's trying to figure out what to do and just takes a story that most of us know, very loosely, and puts a new spin on it. Both of the books are so good. Odds are, if you read one, you will immediately pick up the other one, even though they are in no way related. I would have them both on deck, if you do end up taking them to the beach.
Okay. Does anyone else have any beach reads they want to bring up?
JDM: Well, I just want to say the unexpected theme of this podcast episode is series. Only Lale and I have been recommending individual books and I had my fingers crossed that one of you would be talking about The Copenhagen Trilogy, which I thought for sure Lale was going to bring it on this one.
LA: Oh, I've been intrigued about this. And I actually, I have seen enough people recommend it that I'm like, this is something that I think I need to be excited about, but I know nothing, absolutely nothing.
JDM: I think this is for everyone who's loved the Ferrantes, is in that kind of mood of women's interior lives and the complexities and nuances of their desires. I have only just started reading it, but I'm book clubbing it with Meg Wolitzer so we're reading it together. And I thought for sure one of you would be all over this. But it fits our theme of trilogies, the Ali Smith quartet, series.
LL: Going on the list.
MC: Yeah. Wait Jynne, what is it? What is it about now that you're starting it?
JDM: Oh gosh. It's like a female [Karl Ove] Knausgård is what a lot of people are saying and it is because it starts with her earliest memories of her mother. And it's just her retelling her life basically. But the writing is off the hook. It's like if you love Katie Kitamura or a very refined, gorgeous, and very precise on the level of the sentence. And so really a pleasure to read.
MC: It's been brought up now and it will probably be brought up in the next episode when Lisa, Lale and I have all read it.
JDM: Great. No, we can all discuss it then.
LA: Yeah. It's top of my list after that recommendation.
MC: So, most of the books that we talked about have been released this year or long before this year. For people who want to read something brand spanking new this summer, what would you all suggest?
LL: I am excited about Zakiya Dalila Harris's The Other Black Girl, which is coming out in June, which is about a young woman who was an assistant at a publishing house and which can be a lonely place. And it's her novel about the hijinks both painful and hilarious that took place during her time and that she might imagine might've taken place. I'm really excited to read that novel. I suspect a lot of people are. And we haven't had a good juicy workplace, roman à clef in quite a long time. And I think that stuff is always really fun. And as myself, a new Black girl in publishing, perhaps instructive.
JDM: I hope not too instructive, Lisa. I did get to read an early copy of this. I give it two thumbs up. It is pure workplace fun. Satirical, delicious, page-turning fun.
LL: Super excited for it. I think it's going to be great. And so I have not yet read it, but it is I've been watching with great enthusiasm and there's a copy on my iPad and I'm very excited to read it.
LA: As someone who is desperate to get back into the office and not be behind a screen and loves nothing more than all the dynamics and politics that go into a workplace and the different ways that they are portrayed, I cannot wait to read that.
MC: The book that I'm most excited to read this year is a book that every time Jynne tweets about it, Lale and I Slack each other because we're both so excited about Lauren Groff's Matrix. Truly so excited.
JDM: As you should be. As you should be.
MC: Jynne, tell us the tiniest bit, the tiniest bit. Give people the pitch for this book.
JDM: Oh my God. I still have to get this pitch down, but Lauren Groff has decided to travel back in time a thousand years and write an imaginary version of Marie de France. She starts as an orphan in the royal court. She's an illegitimate daughter of king whoever. Apologies, I'm bad at this era of the royals. But Eleanor of Aquitaine casts her out of the court, sends her penniless to a nunnery and then what is going to happen is the plot line of every novel that we've loved since we were children, which is a true delicious rags to riches story. The orphan girl left with nothing at the door of a nunnery, how she will go on to become the most powerful, wealthy woman in all of England. And let me tell you from sentence one, it is just fire. Every sentence is fire. It is delicious. There is crazy nun sex so don't worry. When you think nuns, this is not the nuns of your church. This is not a Sunday nun story.
MC: Yeah, I for one, truly cannot wait. Yeah, screams erupt every time you tweet about this book.
LA: Very excited.
MC: Lale, is there anything that you are very excited to read this summer that has not come out yet?
LA: The book I'm most excited about is, a man. so I'm not helpful today. But for anyone that's interested, it's Colson Whitehead.
LL: I'm really excited for Kristen Radtke's Seek You, which is a graphic work of nonfiction that's about loneliness. And I feel like that stuff can be so twee. Oh, we're lonely. But it's really smart because it really dives down. It's not just a personal narrative. It's not just, some of it is just how we have understood loneliness collectively throughout time. Some of it is about specific scenarios from her own life. It's not pandemic pegged. It's just a book that happened to be about loneliness before we all got real lonely. And it's just beautiful. It's, I think it's the right kind of thing to steep in because you think, oh, if I read about something dark, it'll make me feel dark. But it's actually something that makes you feel so connected. I think there's a line in a Lauryn Hill song where she's like, "I don't want to say I'm lonely. I don't like the way it sounds." It's the worst thing you could be, lonely. You think of a little old lady, nobody likes them. And this year we learned that it's like, we're all lonely. It's so hard. And it's beautiful because it's collective and it's also just gorgeous. And it's also just quite smart. And it really is I think one of the things that I read that did the most for my heart during this whole long 13 months that we've all been through because it just reminded you—and I think we all need reminders—that we live this life together. Whether or not we know each other, whether or not we live in the same town or city or space that we are connected in our humanity. And it's just a little book that looks at our loneliness as a unified feature of human existence. But it manages to tug your heart strings and the art is gorgeous and the storytelling is really broad. I think it's that one I'm really excited for people to read and it's coming out soon.
JDM: I love her. I love her drawings. I love her style, and I've been counting down the days for this book, Lisa. I'm so excited for this one. Yay!
LL: It's a good one.
MC: Jynne, is there anything else that you, other than the one I suggested for you? Anything else you're excited to read this summer?
JDM: I'm always excited when you're excited, Meredith. One, since I brought her up, Katie Kitamura has a new novel this summer, it's called Intimacies.
LL: It's the best.
JDM: Oh my God, is she the best? It is so sexy in a Katie Kitamura way. It is set in the Hague so it's an appropriate Women Who Travel topic. It's a woman who is a translator and has been put, she's got an elite job, a dream job translating at the Hague but she's alone in the city. She doesn't have many friends. She ends up having to interpret for this massive war criminal. And as the trial goes on, she ends up beginning to question her own moral complicity in the translation decisions she's making for him. And he flirts with her, he's getting into her, there's this weird tension between them and her beginning to spiral out while living abroad in a foreign city. For anyone who's traveled alone as a woman or lived abroad alone as a woman, there's so much of both the strength and the vulnerability that comes when you feel like you've done a thing and gone to a place alone as a woman. And she just nailed it. And so I think for listeners of this podcast especially, it's a good one.
MC: Lale, do you want to send us off with the last recommendation of the epsiode?
LA: I'm halfway through, No One is Talking About This by Patricia Lockwood.
JDM: Oh my God. Oh my God,.
LA: Wild, wild.
LL: I haven't read it yet, but it is a 100 percent on my, well, it will be on my nightstand when my things get back to New York.
JDM: She has more ideas in one day than most of us have in our life. I don't know where...Talk about a brain.
LA: Yeah, I started it yesterday and I'm halfway through. And it also just, I've never read such a succinct representation of being too online—to the point where it sort of was unsettling because it felt so close to what it is like to operate on the internet right now. Just incredible, incredible book.
MC: If you want to find links for all the books that were mentioned, you can find them in the show notes. Be sure to buy them from your local bookstore or if you cannot find them there, go to Bookshop.org and then your local bookstore might benefit from it anyway. Lisa, where can people find you on the internet if they want to keep up with you? What Pantheon & Schocken Books are putting out? Where can they find you?
LL: You can find me on the Twitter as usual @likaluca. And you can find lots of news about all of those books that are coming out on my Twitter, on Pantheon Books’ Twitter and on Instagram, which is, I think, where we really shine. Come find us there.
MC: And Jynne, where can people keep up with you, your new life upstate, and the books that Riverhead is putting out?
JDM: My slow transformation into the Ralph Waldo Emerson of the 21st century. I am @jynnnne with four N's on the Twitter and @jynnne with three N's on the Instagram, which is just a lot of nature photos, but come for them.
MC: You can find me @ohheytheremere.
LA: And me @lalehannah.
MC: Be sure to check out the past podcasts we have done with both Lisa and Jynne if you're looking for more book recommendations. And let us know on Instagram what you guys are reading the summer or planning to. You can find Women Who Travel on Instagram @womenwhotravel. You should also subscribe to our newsletter and join our Facebook group. Links to all of those things plus, as I mentioned, the books we've talked about will be in the show notes and we will talk to you next week.