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'Dad had to carry me up stairs to the LGBT party'
The realities of being a disabled LGBT student.
As LGBT Pride month makes way for Disability Pride Month, UCAS exclusively reveals to Access All that disabled students are twice as likely to identify as LGBT.
Connor, a trans man, and Lucy, a lesbian, talk about the positive experiences they've had of finding their communities while studying, but also the challenges they've experienced, like inaccessible venues.
Emma Tracey and Martin Dougan take the show on the road to give blind tennis a go (watch out for the video on social media) to see if they're Wimbledon ready.
And disabled dancer, Kate Stanforth, talks about re-imagining her ballet career after she became a wheelchair-user and getting her students to tap dance…with their hands.
Produced by Beth Rose and Keiligh Baker
Recorded and mixed by Dave O'Neill
The editors were Damon Rose and Jonathan Aspinwall
Transcription
1st July 2022bbc.co.uk/accessallAccess All – episode 9
Presented by Emma Tracey and Martin Dougan
Emma and Martin are preparing to record the podcast.EMMA- You’ll notice in this section I’ve given you all the hard bits.
MARTIN- Thanks, mate. Do you know what I’ve noticed about the BBC disabled toilet? There’s a lot of good things to be said about it, but see the button that you press to open the door?
EMMA- Oh yes, don’t use that one.
MARTIN- You press the button to open the door, right, and god forbid if you were ever desperate because you open the door, you get yourself in there and wait for 25 years for the door to shut again. So, if you were going in there desperate you’re not making it.
EMMA- This is the thing about different facilities being set up for people with different impairments. I assume it has to close because it might take some specific person a long time to get in.
MARTIN- Exactly. But it opens up quite quickly. So, it swings itself, and you’re like brilliant. You know what I mean.
EMMA- Exactly. When they did up the Edinburgh BBC offices they did up the disabled toilets, and I went in when it was finally ready and the toilet was so high that when I sat on it my feet didn’t touch the floor.
MARTIN- You know what the reminds me of? The guy in Little Britain that goes round the theme tune, sitting on the theme tune.
MUSIC- Theme music.
EMMA- It’s another Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m Emma Tracey.
MARTIN- And I’m Martin Dougan.
EMMA- If you listen through to the end you’ll find out how one person changed her dance moves after becoming disabled, and you’ll find out what this is. [Sound clip]
MARTIN- Emma, I don’t have a clue what that is.
EMMA- Well, here’s a clue for you: it’s absolutely nothing to do with Santa or his sleigh.
MARTIN- Right.
EMMA- It’s that time of year when students across the country will be hoping that they’ve aced their exams and will be going to their chosen universities come Autumn. For disabled students it can be a nerve-wracking time though as they get their access needs sorted. But in an Access All exclusive UCAS, which runs the application process for British universities, has revealed that disabled students are twice as likely to identify as LGBT. That brings with it some extra challenges, from a lack of accessibility in LGBT spaces, to discrimination on not one, but two fronts. Martin, what do we know?
MARTIN- According to UCAS 15% of disabled applicants identify as LGBT+. But when we’re looking at non-disabled applicants it’s significantly lower. Looking at some stats from 2018 Stonewall found that more than half of disabled LGBT students hid or disguised the fact that they are LGBT because they were afraid of discrimination. And 14% of these said they weren’t able to be themselves at university.
EMMA- Oh, that’s a real shame. London Gay Pride is this weekend and Disability Pride Month has already started so this feels like the perfect time to talk about this. We have Connor and Lucy with us. Hello.
CONNOR- Hi.
LUCY- Hi.
EMMA- Thank you so much for joining us. Now, it’s all about identity this is, isn’t it? How do you guys identify? Shall we start with you, Connor?
CONNOR- Sure. I’m a blind person. I identify very much as a blind person. And I’m transgender so I’m a transman, so female to male transgender.
EMMA- And what about you, Lucy?
LUCY- I am a full-time wheelchair user, so that’s sort of how I identify. And I identify as a lesbian.
MARTIN- So, Connor tell us about being a disabled LGBT student at university?
CONNOR- I actually only came out last August, so I had a lot of university experience pre coming out, and have a little bit post coming out. One thing I would say is that in terms of support from the faculty I have been really well supported. My supervisor for my master’s has been amazing. He’s great, he’s just so encouraging in all aspects of my life, whether that’s academically or just how I’m doing in general. And his support has been really incredible.
MARTIN- What challenges did you face though, if any?
CONNOR- Mostly around access. I changed my name obviously when I came out. And just things like to change my name at the university was a huge process that wasn’t accessible because I’m blind.
EMMA- Really? What do you mean it wasn’t accessible? What made it? Gosh.
CONNOR- I’m sure you can imagine. The form was a PDF that wasn’t accessible. So, essentially I was supposed to print it off, fill it in by hand, and scan it back in to email to them. Well, I can’t do that because I can’t hand write or read, so I couldn’t fill it in. I was dealing with a lot of family stuff at the time and I just did not have the energy to go through that fight, I couldn’t do it. So, I messaged my supervisor, I sent him an email and he actually went and had this big fight for me. But they refused to provide him with an accessible copy for a month. And this is a lecturer asking for this copy and saying, my student needs this in an alternative format, and they wouldn’t give it to him for a month. And then when they did I filled it in and then they told me they wouldn’t accept it because it wasn’t the original form, even though it was an alternative format that they’d produced.
EMMA- Oh dear.
CONNOR- So, then I just pulled out the Equality Act.
MARTIN- It’s not even a big thing to ask for, is it really?
CONNOR- No, it never is. It’s so typical. It doesn’t surprise any blind person that forms are just one of the constant battlegrounds. You think this is a tiny thing. You think, well why does it matter because they’re getting exactly the same information, right, whether they’re getting it in Word or handwritten, it literally doesn’t matter. But yet it is just a constant fight in all areas. But obviously for me this was pretty stressful because I really needed my name to be updated across university systems, but I couldn’t get that done for a while.
MARTIN- Lucy, tell us what it’s like being a university student.
LUCY- I’m quite lucky I would say with my experience so far. I was out before I started at uni, and I very, very quickly found the LGBTQI+ societies for the uni. And they were really open and accepting, and so I was able to very easily make my way into that group and make friends. I met lots of people in the society who also had disabilities themselves.
EMMA - You mentioned that a lot of the people you met at the LGBT societies were disabled as well. So does that figure, that UCAS figure, is that something you would already know? Is it something you're like "Oh actually that makes sense", how do you feel about it? Connor.
CONNOR - So I've actually read a few papers on this, just because I guess I study sociology so I guess that happens. I’ve read some and there are some from the US as well that talk about the prevalence of disability within LGBT communities.
I don’t know why it is. I think it’s really fascinating from a sociological point of view and I’d love to know you know, is there a difference between people with congenital disabilities versus acquired, or is it just in general and why is that? Or is it entirely coincidental. I just find it fascinating from the sociological point of view. I have absolutely no idea why it is.
EMMA - We'll be talking to Dr Ju Gosling in a bit and she’s got quite a lot of stuff to say about that whole subject. You came out quite recently, Connor.
CONNOR- Yes.
EMMA- Have you found being disabled and LGBT is like a double discrimination, have you found it to be a double issue?
CONNOR- It manifests in really interesting ways. I find toilets are a big one. Bathrooms are complicated for so many people: bathrooms are complicated for disabled people, they’re complicated for trans people. What I find is if I walk into a bathroom and people think I don’t belong there. You see if I was sighted and I walked into a men’s bathroom people would probably look at me and be like, hmm well they’ve chosen to be here. Whereas if I walk in they’re going to be like, oh no blind person, they’ve gone in the wrong bathroom and they don’t know.
EMMA- It’s not funny but I just relate so much to what you’re saying.
CONNOR- You’ve got to laugh I think. It’s just that thing, isn’t it, you know; like you know before it happens it’s going to happen because you just know what people are like. I tend to use just disabled bathrooms because I think it’s just way less stressful.
MARTIN- Lucy, how well does the LGBT community welcome disabled people? Have you had challenges in that area?
LUCY- As a community I would say I haven’t had any sort of issues in terms of being invited in. But I definitely had issues on campus. In my first term actually, I’m the only wheelchair user who regularly goes to society events, it was in a place that I hadn’t been, and for some reason the university decided that that day they were going to service all of the lifts on the campus at the same time. Meaning that I literally couldn’t get anywhere.
The first Pride event that I ever went to was a Christmas party that happened at a local nightclub, and it had a very steep and very long staircase. And because of the building it was in, it was quite an old building, so they didn’t have a lift. And so when I turned up – and they knew I was coming, I’d done all the paperwork, I’d phoned everyone, I’d done the things that I needed to do to let them know that I was coming and I was a full-time wheelchair user and all that sort of thing – and I turned up and they were like, oh yeah, there’s stairs. So, thankfully I was still, because I’m quite a short person, small enough that my dad was able to carry me and then my wheelchair up the stairs and get me into the venue. But then there was another step to get into the private room that had been booked for the function, and so then I had to get up another step. And thankfully the disabled toilet was there so I didn’t have to deal with that step in terms of using facilities.
EMMA- It’s hard work getting to disabled facilities.
LUCY- But I couldn’t get to the bar.
EMMA- You couldn’t get to the bar!
LUCY- Yeah, I couldn’t get to the bar.
MARTIN- Yeah, that’s the biggest issue for me. Connor, what improvements would you like to make? What would you like to see happen in the future?
CONNOR- I think just broadly recognising that people can belong to more than one group. And I think that goes a long way to fixing these issues in terms of when we’re actually mindful people can have more than one identity, like someone can be disabled and gay or trans, then I think we plan better for everyone. But I also think the Equality Act needs teeth.
MARTIN- Yeah, sure.
CONNOR- Which is a whole other issue.
MARTIN- Definitely. Lucy, what about you?
LUCY- I just think that generally when events are being planned disability just needs to be a part of that conversation. Because unless a disabled person shouts to make their voice heard it’s not a part of the conversation. I think ensuring events are held in accessible places, say there’s a march or something, making sure you know the entire route is wheelchair accessible and on flat surfaces.
EMMA- Yes, there have been lots of chats around Pride and different Prides and the accessibility of Pride, haven’t there as well?
LUCY- Yeah.
EMMA- So, that’s a big conversation in itself, isn’t it? Lucy, thank you so much, and Connor thank you so much for joining us. It’s been lovely and enlightening speaking to you both so thank you so much.
LUCY- Thank you for having us.
EMMA- To help us understand how things can be improved for disabled LGBT students I spoke earlier to Dr Ju Gosling. She’s the co-chair of Regard, the national LGBTQI+ organisation for disabled people.
JU- I think for other students, and indeed for everybody within the student community, it’s understanding that their experiences may not be the same as yours. And a really big thing for students who require support is that social care agencies stop work at nine. So, I’ve come across situations where everybody thinks so-and-so is unsociable; but they’re not unsociable, they just have to be back in their room at 8 o’clock because they’re helped into bed by 9 o’clock. And that may not be something they even want to disclose. If you’re dependent on scribes, if you’re dependent on interpreters, if you’re dependent on guides, unless your fellow students come forward and support that you’re not going to have access. So, I think it’s about just understanding quite how isolated people can be.
I’ve worked recently with students where the father has had to work nights because he’s then had to drive his son to university and scribe for him all day because the arrangements just haven’t been put in place. That’s almost the least of it, because it’s impossible to find your community if you don’t have your dad or anybody else, and for example you can’t see or you’re too anxious to get across campus, or you need a little bit of support because you can’t hear properly, you need somebody to make some notes.
We all have intersectional identities but we’re all dependent on each other. That’s where real independence comes from.
MARTIN- That was Dr Ju Gosling.
EMMA- Now, we’ve covered the LGBT aspect of being a disabled student and what UCAS said about that. But what else did their most recent report say?
MARTIN- Well, UCAS tells us a record number of disabled people applied to get into higher education in 2021, 8% more actually.
EMMA- 8%, that’s a big jump. I wonder why that is.
MARTIN- Could be maybe COVID related possibly?
EMMA- It might be. Online being a student when you’re disabled can be a tricky business in terms of accessibility and stuff like that.
MARTIN- Actually I wouldn’t know. I was never a university student or a college student.
EMMA- You were never a student?
MARTIN- I was never a student, no.
EMMA- So, how did you get into this game?
MARTIN- I snuck in through the back door. [Theme tune] Forget Glastonbury. [Hello Potato Pants Festival! Applause]
EMMA- What?
MARTIN- Well, after the Glastonbury chat last week we got a tweet about a local event called Potato Pants Festival, which raises runny HSP, hereditary spastic paraplegia. What a name.
EMMA- Yeah. It’s a good name for a festival.
MARTIN- Yeah.
EMMA- Talking of tweets, Martin, we had a fab tweet from fellow broadcasters, 89.9 PBA FM, down under in Australia. So, hello to Pete, Nona, and Alexis who sent us a lovely tweet from there, so that’s really nice. And listen to this, Martin.
MARTIN- Go on.
EMMA- You ready? Peter Ashley Jackson tweeted, ‘Martin Dougan gives an illuminating and slightly terrifying yet hilarious insight into visiting a music festival in a wheelchair’.
MARTIN- Mission accomplished.
EMMA- From festivals to sport. Wimbledon is on at the moment and the wheelchair tennis competition starts next Monday. But Martin, you know a bit about tennis, don’t you?
MARTIN- Yeah. I’ve tried wheelchair tennis actually.
EMMA- Have you?
MARTIN- Yeah, I have. I’ve played it. It’s really difficult. I think when you play a wheelchair sport you think that you’ll be good at it. I played basketball so I thought naturally I’ll be quite good at wheelchair tennis. But no. It’s the hand/eye coordination bit for me. I can catch a ball, but if you put a racket in there and ask me to hit one it doesn’t quite, my brain doesn’t quite send the same signals to my body.
EMMA- Not only is there wheelchair tennis, and that’s the most high-profile of the disability tennises – tennises? – we also have deaf tennis, there’s learning disability tennis, and there is blind tennis.
MARTIN- No way.
EMMA- Yeah, blind tennis.
MARTIN- No way.
EMMA- They’re hoping that it will become a Paralympic sport. I think it’s an up and coming one. But it’s a bit different to regular tennis isn’t it, Martin?
MARTIN- Yes. Blind tennis began in Japan in 1984. It’s played in over 30 countries. The rules are similar, the courts are similar, nets are lower, rackets shorter, balls are bigger.
EMMA- The balls are bigger.
MARTIN- Yeah, you’ve got a ball there, haven’t you? Give it a wee rattle.
EMMA- It’s got a rattly noise to it. it’s made of foam. It’s very soft. So, anyway we did have a go at blind tennis in the park yesterday with a bit of help from our BBC colleague, Reece Finnigan.
REECE- Normally in tennis you only get one bounce to hit it; in blind tennis you have two or three, depending on your sight category.
EMMA- Okay. So, I’m B1 for sure, which is the fully blind, totally blind. Three bounces?
REECE- For totally blind players you can have three bounces.
EMMA- Okay. So, it doesn’t feel very bouncy the ball.
REECE- It probably doesn’t, but you’ll be surprised, if you get it on a hard surface it will bounce quite a bit.
EMMA- So, what’s my starting point?
REECE- So, the key thing is for blind tennis you want to get really low.
EMMA- How low?
REECE- So, basically the first bounce is what you would use to locate the ball, right?
EMMA- Okay.
REECE- The second bounce you want to be positioning yourself and getting really low to the ground. And on the third bounce you want to be hitting that over the net essentially. So, the server says ready, the receiver will shout yes, and then the server will shout play, and then they’ll hit the ball. Okay, are you ready?
EMMA- Yes.
REECE- Play. I think you’re going for it too early.
EMMA- It’s my competitive streak.
REECE- You don’t want to be going on the first bounce. You’re rushing it. You’re rushing into it. Are you ready?
EMMA- Yes.
REECE- Play.
EMMA- I did it!
REECE- That was good, that was good.
EMMA- Yes!
REECE- So, Emma’s just given this a go. Let’s see how Martin does.
MARTIN- Reece, what I’m going to do is, instead of having a blindfold I’m going to close my eyes. Honest, I’m not going to cheat. I might open them a little bit.
REECE- All right. Martin, are you ready?
MARTIN- I’m ready.
REECE- Play. Wow. I mean, wow.
EMMA- Did you have your eyes open?
MARTIN- I’m actually going to close my eyes properly this time. So, my eyes are closed. Right.
REECE- Okay, are you ready?
MARTIN- Nope. I’m ready.
REECE- Play. Did that go close enough to him? I don’t know.
EMMA- You really, really closed your eyes then.
MARTIN- I did close my eyes genuinely. Are you ready?
REECE- Yeah. Oh, are you serving at me?
MARTIN- I actually hit it. What the heck? [End of clip] So, you were decent at playing it. But do you watch tennis, Emma?
EMMA- Only when it’s a final and Andy Murray’s in it.
MARTIN- It’s not at Wimbledon yet, but the Australian Open uses Hawkeye technology which tracks the ball in real time to provide an uber audio experience for blind people.
EMMA- Get in!
MARTIN- Yeah. Action audio uses 3D sounds in different tones to show where the ball is on the court, how close it is to the line, and if the shot is forehand or backhand.
EMMA- I know a bit about this. Now, we played a bit at the beginning of the show and that was this tennis sound. Here is it again. [Sound clip] So, the Christmas bells – which was an odd choice I think – tell you where the ball is on the court. There’s a sort of radar sound which sort of tells you how close it is to the line. There are two different tones of beep which I think tells you which one is a forehand and which one is a backhand. That is a lot of information to take in.
MARTIN- That is a lot to take in.
EMMA- [Cheering] Oh thank you, thank you for the cheer there. Now, you might be listening to this podcast in mono, which a lot of services bring it to you in, so the best way to get the full effect of what we’ve just played is to go onto BBC Sounds and listen to it there. And put your headphones on for that 3D sound.
MARTIN- And that is in stereo.
EMMA- That is in stereo absolutely. Let’s hear those sounds again without us talking over it this time. [Sound clip]
MUSIC- Theme.
MARTIN- Emma, I’m hoping to get some top tips from our next guest, Kate Stanforth.
EMMA- Yay.
MARTIN- Yeah, she’s a dance teacher, disability activist, model and TikTok sensation whose video of her sarcastically dancing on the floor next to a wheelchair was viewed, wait for it, more than 5 million times.
EMMA- Wow.
MARTIN- She’s gained even more followers since posting dance tutorials online. Hello Kate. And tell us a little bit more about that sarcastic video.
KATE- Hi. Sorry, that was one amazing intro. Can I use that, like, forever?
MARTIN- As long as you pay me royalties for it I don’t mind.
KATE- That video especially that hit off out of nothing. If you haven’t seen it basically there was a WAP dance.
EMMA- A what dance? Does WAP dance for something that we can’t say?
KATE- I’m pretty sure it probably does.
EMMA- Right, I’ve got you now. I know what it is now.
KATE- Get past that bit. And yeah, everybody was dancing to this and I was just like, this is how people think that I dance in my wheelchair. So, I did a little bit of a dance, and then I basically tipped my wheelchair on the side and got onto it on the side, and I was dancing on the side like this. I got some funny comments. I got some comments being like, what’s she doing and stuff like that, but at least people started following me and seeing exactly what I do, my disability activism stuff, my dancing. That was the start of a lot of my dance stuff online, so it worked out really well for me just from a funny video.
EMMA- Yes, it was a kind of a gateway. Have you always wanted to be a dancer?
KATE- Yes. I started dancing when I was two, and then I went into pre-professional training when I was eight. And I was dancing in the hope of being a professional ballerina. And it was when I was 14 I actually became really unwell and became disabled. So, I thought that I wouldn’t be able to dance when I became disabled.
EMMA- So, what happened to you when you were 14? How did you become disabled, if you don’t mind me asking? Because I know that’s a question that some people will answer and some won’t, and I completely and absolutely respect either way.
KATE- Yeah, I totally like answering it because I like raising awareness. I got diagnosed with ME first, and it took me a year to get diagnosed with my ME. And then I later on got diagnosed with EDS, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, which is a genetic condition.
MARTIN- Emma you’ll know, and Kate you’ll find out pretty soon I’m sure, but my dancing is a sight to behold. I think I scare people. And I’m quite self-conscious about dancing because I’m a wheelchair user as well. How did you sort of gee yourself up to think, do you know what, I was a dancer before and I’m still a dancer now and I’m going to be loud and proud about it?
KATE- It was difficult. I’m not going to lie about that, because I looked completely different from dancing on my feet. And I was a ballerina which is not something which you can change very easily into a wheelchair. So, it took me a long time to adapt, but also coming to terms with it myself and being like, you’re not going to be the same dancer that you were before. So, it was kind of getting to terms with this new Kate and this new dancer. And being okay with that, and being okay that I’m always going to learn new dances and new ways to move my body. But it’s also really exciting the stuff that I can do in my wheelchair now and the moves that I can make which no other ballerinas can do because they don’t have wheels, they can’t spin.
MARTIN- I was going to ask, have you actually gained any sort of dancing because you’re in the wheelchair? Because a lot of people wouldn’t believe that. They would think oh, that person’s got restricted mobility so they can’t do something. But have you gained stuff as a result?
KATE- Yeah, there’s loads of stuff that I’ve gained. I’ve gained a lot of shapes that I can create. But also one of my favourite things to do, it sounds really weird, is when I work with partners, especially children, I love working with children, and they can stand on my wheelchair, so I don’t have to take their weight, and we can work together. But we’re working together so closely and we can make moves and I can move them about, so I can wheel my wheelchair and they’re moving at the same time.
MARTIN- What shapes have you got? Because I’m really good at the big fish, little fish, cardboard box kind of shape. I don’t know if anybody knows that but it’s like the sort of Kevin and Perry dance. That’s as far as my repertoire goes in the world of dance. But what kind of shapes do you bust out?
KATE- The dab is really good at the moment.
EMMA- What’s that?
KATE- You’re kind of like saluting, but both arms go up and you’re like boom.
EMMA- Like that?
MARTIN- No, thinking about it like you know when someone’s got their washing and they’re trying to bash out the creases, so you put your arms to the side.
KATE- Both arms to the side.
MARTIN- Together, same side.
EMMA- Oh right, okay.
MARTIN- A bit like that, yeah. Yeah, that’s as good a dab as I’ve ever seen.
EMMA- I think you’re being kind there, Martin.
MARTIN- I’m not. You’re doing well.
EMMA- Sorry. We got a bit excited there, Kate. Are there other moves that we need to know about that you can do sitting down that are very cool?
KATE- There’s so much, honestly so much stuff. My favourite move is actually an arabesque, which is just, that’s a very ballet move, and it’s obviously just a diagonal line with your arms. And it just looks so absolutely beautiful in whatever you’re doing, whether you’re in a wheelchair, whether you’re standing up. And a lot of my students they work from beds or their sofa, and I’ve got visually impaired students, I’ve got deaf students; I learn so much from them.
EMMA- So, you’ve got students so that means you teach dance. You’ve got a dance school. And it’s not just any dance school, is it? Can you paint a picture of what your dance school is and what you do there?
KATE- Yeah. I have an inclusive dance school now, which is the best thing I’ve ever done. I have three other disabled dance teachers.
EMMA- Really?
KATE- Yes.
MARTIN- That’s brilliant.
EMMA- I didn’t know there were other disabled dance teachers. I thought you might be the only one.
MARTIN- I’ve got this vision in my head of it being like Fame or Glee or something like that, this amazing school where people that you expect...
EMMA- Where everybody knows you name.
MARTIN- Yeah, exactly.
EMMA- Remembers your name.
MARTIN- Please tell me it’s like that.
EMMA- Cheers.
MARTIN- Not Cheers, no. Please tell me they come in and everybody just starts busting to dance.
KATE- Honestly we’re just such a force to be reckoned with. It’s actually enabling them to make those adaptations. So, I will do kind of like a dance or some choreography and as they grow in confidence they actually know how to adapt things themselves. So, some people might not be able to lift their arms up because of dislocations or pain, and I don’t need to go to them, well if you can’t lift your arms up you can this. By within two, three weeks they know how to adapt it because they’ve learnt the skills. Because my aim isn’t for everybody to stay in my dance school forever; it’s for them to go out into the community, bang on those doors and get into the non-disabled classes and go, I want to join in.
MARTIN- I’ve heard something talking about wheelchair tap dancing.
KATE- Yes.
MARTIN- What is it?
KATE- One of my incredible students said that she would absolutely love to learn to tap dance but never would be able to because she’s a wheelchair user and stays in bed quite a lot and can’t move her legs. So, I was like, no there’ll be a way around it, we’ll find something. And I looked online and some tap teachers in the US use these kinds of gloves to teach basic tap moves so people could follow it. And I was like, we could use that just to generally do a tap session. So, we made these gloves where you put the taps on the gloves and you just tap with your hands. And we call it the beats class. We don’t just do kind of like tap moves; we focus mainly on the rhythm. Because tap is a bit complicated but it’s all about the rhythm. And we do the rhythm not just on the surface; we can make beats on wheelchairs, we can make beats on any surface. And also that’s something that as soon as I put that on TikTok people are like, blowing my mind.
MARTIN- it’s quite a simple idea but it’s quite unique at the same time. And those are the ones that usually work, aren’t they?
KATE- Yeah.
MARTIN- It just seems pretty obvious that oh, you want to tap dance, but you can’t use your feet but you can use your hands. It seems like a no-brainer but I’d never thought about it until you mentioned it.
EMMA- Comments haven’t all been positive, have they? Some people have actually accused you of faking your impairment. And here’s what you said back to the trolls.
KATE- Why would I spend 13 years of my life lying to people when before I became disabled I was training to be a professional dancer? I had my life planned out as a professional dancer, and I had to give that all up. Why would I spend life savings on wheelchairs? Why would I be faking any of this? Like actually I am faking being well. Comments? No, mate, absolutely no. Bye bye.
EMMA- I love that. Kate, I’m really intrigued by this idea of faking wellness. I’ve heard of obviously faking disability. But faking wellness, what does that mean?
KATE- Yeah, I feel as though I put on almost like a face, especially when I’m doing dance sessions and things like that where I need to look as though I’m ready, I’m ready to work, I’m okay and I’m here. It’s important that I’m trying not to give all this toxic positivity out and I’m like, here I am, I’m Kate, I’m great, I’m disabled but life’s amazing. I’m so thankful for what I’ve got and what I’m doing, but also I want to make sure that the people who aren’t doing so well don’t feel like they’re alone. And I think that’s really important.
EMMA- Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been so, so interesting to hear about your dance career and what you’re doing with the dance school as well.
KATE- Thank you.
EMMA- That is almost it for another BBC Access All. Thank you so much Martin for being here the last two weeks while Nikki’s been on her holidays.
MARTIN- No, no, thank you. Thanks to the team, you’ve all been great. I’ve really enjoyed myself. And thanks to Nikki as well for allowing me to fill in with those big shoes that she’s got.
EMMA- If you want to get in touch please email us on [email protected].
MARTIN- Or a voice note or a text message on WhatsApp. Our number is 0330 123 9480.
EMMA- And we’re looking forward to seeing you, Martin Dougan, popping up on Newsround again.
MARTIN- Every once in a while, here and there.
EMMA- Every once in a while, here and there, absolutely. We want to spread the word about Access All. Tell your friends, share it on your social media please. I don’t know, grab your friend’s phone and subscribe for them. That might work.
MARTIN- That would work.
EMMA- I can’t condone that. And they’ve probably got a password. But please share the pod, spread the word, we absolutely want to tell people about it. Thank you for listening and I will see you all next week. Bye bye. Martin, say bye.
MARTIN- Oh, bye.
Presented by Emma Tracey and Martin Dougan
Emma and Martin are preparing to record the podcast.EMMA- You’ll notice in this section I’ve given you all the hard bits.
MARTIN- Thanks, mate. Do you know what I’ve noticed about the BBC disabled toilet? There’s a lot of good things to be said about it, but see the button that you press to open the door?
EMMA- Oh yes, don’t use that one.
MARTIN- You press the button to open the door, right, and god forbid if you were ever desperate because you open the door, you get yourself in there and wait for 25 years for the door to shut again. So, if you were going in there desperate you’re not making it.
EMMA- This is the thing about different facilities being set up for people with different impairments. I assume it has to close because it might take some specific person a long time to get in.
MARTIN- Exactly. But it opens up quite quickly. So, it swings itself, and you’re like brilliant. You know what I mean.
EMMA- Exactly. When they did up the Edinburgh BBC offices they did up the disabled toilets, and I went in when it was finally ready and the toilet was so high that when I sat on it my feet didn’t touch the floor.
MARTIN- You know what the reminds me of? The guy in Little Britain that goes round the theme tune, sitting on the theme tune.
MUSIC- Theme music.
EMMA- It’s another Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m Emma Tracey.
MARTIN- And I’m Martin Dougan.
EMMA- If you listen through to the end you’ll find out how one person changed her dance moves after becoming disabled, and you’ll find out what this is. [Sound clip]
MARTIN- Emma, I don’t have a clue what that is.
EMMA- Well, here’s a clue for you: it’s absolutely nothing to do with Santa or his sleigh.
MARTIN- Right.
EMMA- It’s that time of year when students across the country will be hoping that they’ve aced their exams and will be going to their chosen universities come Autumn. For disabled students it can be a nerve-wracking time though as they get their access needs sorted. But in an Access All exclusive UCAS, which runs the application process for British universities, has revealed that disabled students are twice as likely to identify as LGBT. That brings with it some extra challenges, from a lack of accessibility in LGBT spaces, to discrimination on not one, but two fronts. Martin, what do we know?
MARTIN- According to UCAS 15% of disabled applicants identify as LGBT+. But when we’re looking at non-disabled applicants it’s significantly lower. Looking at some stats from 2018 Stonewall found that more than half of disabled LGBT students hid or disguised the fact that they are LGBT because they were afraid of discrimination. And 14% of these said they weren’t able to be themselves at university.
EMMA- Oh, that’s a real shame. London Gay Pride is this weekend and Disability Pride Month has already started so this feels like the perfect time to talk about this. We have Connor and Lucy with us. Hello.
CONNOR- Hi.
LUCY- Hi.
EMMA- Thank you so much for joining us. Now, it’s all about identity this is, isn’t it? How do you guys identify? Shall we start with you, Connor?
CONNOR- Sure. I’m a blind person. I identify very much as a blind person. And I’m transgender so I’m a transman, so female to male transgender.
EMMA- And what about you, Lucy?
LUCY- I am a full-time wheelchair user, so that’s sort of how I identify. And I identify as a lesbian.
MARTIN- So, Connor tell us about being a disabled LGBT student at university?
CONNOR- I actually only came out last August, so I had a lot of university experience pre coming out, and have a little bit post coming out. One thing I would say is that in terms of support from the faculty I have been really well supported. My supervisor for my master’s has been amazing. He’s great, he’s just so encouraging in all aspects of my life, whether that’s academically or just how I’m doing in general. And his support has been really incredible.
MARTIN- What challenges did you face though, if any?
CONNOR- Mostly around access. I changed my name obviously when I came out. And just things like to change my name at the university was a huge process that wasn’t accessible because I’m blind.
EMMA- Really? What do you mean it wasn’t accessible? What made it? Gosh.
CONNOR- I’m sure you can imagine. The form was a PDF that wasn’t accessible. So, essentially I was supposed to print it off, fill it in by hand, and scan it back in to email to them. Well, I can’t do that because I can’t hand write or read, so I couldn’t fill it in. I was dealing with a lot of family stuff at the time and I just did not have the energy to go through that fight, I couldn’t do it. So, I messaged my supervisor, I sent him an email and he actually went and had this big fight for me. But they refused to provide him with an accessible copy for a month. And this is a lecturer asking for this copy and saying, my student needs this in an alternative format, and they wouldn’t give it to him for a month. And then when they did I filled it in and then they told me they wouldn’t accept it because it wasn’t the original form, even though it was an alternative format that they’d produced.
EMMA- Oh dear.
CONNOR- So, then I just pulled out the Equality Act.
MARTIN- It’s not even a big thing to ask for, is it really?
CONNOR- No, it never is. It’s so typical. It doesn’t surprise any blind person that forms are just one of the constant battlegrounds. You think this is a tiny thing. You think, well why does it matter because they’re getting exactly the same information, right, whether they’re getting it in Word or handwritten, it literally doesn’t matter. But yet it is just a constant fight in all areas. But obviously for me this was pretty stressful because I really needed my name to be updated across university systems, but I couldn’t get that done for a while.
MARTIN- Lucy, tell us what it’s like being a university student.
LUCY- I’m quite lucky I would say with my experience so far. I was out before I started at uni, and I very, very quickly found the LGBTQI+ societies for the uni. And they were really open and accepting, and so I was able to very easily make my way into that group and make friends. I met lots of people in the society who also had disabilities themselves.
EMMA - You mentioned that a lot of the people you met at the LGBT societies were disabled as well. So does that figure, that UCAS figure, is that something you would already know? Is it something you're like "Oh actually that makes sense", how do you feel about it? Connor.
CONNOR - So I've actually read a few papers on this, just because I guess I study sociology so I guess that happens. I’ve read some and there are some from the US as well that talk about the prevalence of disability within LGBT communities.
I don’t know why it is. I think it’s really fascinating from a sociological point of view and I’d love to know you know, is there a difference between people with congenital disabilities versus acquired, or is it just in general and why is that? Or is it entirely coincidental. I just find it fascinating from the sociological point of view. I have absolutely no idea why it is.
EMMA - We'll be talking to Dr Ju Gosling in a bit and she’s got quite a lot of stuff to say about that whole subject. You came out quite recently, Connor.
CONNOR- Yes.
EMMA- Have you found being disabled and LGBT is like a double discrimination, have you found it to be a double issue?
CONNOR- It manifests in really interesting ways. I find toilets are a big one. Bathrooms are complicated for so many people: bathrooms are complicated for disabled people, they’re complicated for trans people. What I find is if I walk into a bathroom and people think I don’t belong there. You see if I was sighted and I walked into a men’s bathroom people would probably look at me and be like, hmm well they’ve chosen to be here. Whereas if I walk in they’re going to be like, oh no blind person, they’ve gone in the wrong bathroom and they don’t know.
EMMA- It’s not funny but I just relate so much to what you’re saying.
CONNOR- You’ve got to laugh I think. It’s just that thing, isn’t it, you know; like you know before it happens it’s going to happen because you just know what people are like. I tend to use just disabled bathrooms because I think it’s just way less stressful.
MARTIN- Lucy, how well does the LGBT community welcome disabled people? Have you had challenges in that area?
LUCY- As a community I would say I haven’t had any sort of issues in terms of being invited in. But I definitely had issues on campus. In my first term actually, I’m the only wheelchair user who regularly goes to society events, it was in a place that I hadn’t been, and for some reason the university decided that that day they were going to service all of the lifts on the campus at the same time. Meaning that I literally couldn’t get anywhere.
The first Pride event that I ever went to was a Christmas party that happened at a local nightclub, and it had a very steep and very long staircase. And because of the building it was in, it was quite an old building, so they didn’t have a lift. And so when I turned up – and they knew I was coming, I’d done all the paperwork, I’d phoned everyone, I’d done the things that I needed to do to let them know that I was coming and I was a full-time wheelchair user and all that sort of thing – and I turned up and they were like, oh yeah, there’s stairs. So, thankfully I was still, because I’m quite a short person, small enough that my dad was able to carry me and then my wheelchair up the stairs and get me into the venue. But then there was another step to get into the private room that had been booked for the function, and so then I had to get up another step. And thankfully the disabled toilet was there so I didn’t have to deal with that step in terms of using facilities.
EMMA- It’s hard work getting to disabled facilities.
LUCY- But I couldn’t get to the bar.
EMMA- You couldn’t get to the bar!
LUCY- Yeah, I couldn’t get to the bar.
MARTIN- Yeah, that’s the biggest issue for me. Connor, what improvements would you like to make? What would you like to see happen in the future?
CONNOR- I think just broadly recognising that people can belong to more than one group. And I think that goes a long way to fixing these issues in terms of when we’re actually mindful people can have more than one identity, like someone can be disabled and gay or trans, then I think we plan better for everyone. But I also think the Equality Act needs teeth.
MARTIN- Yeah, sure.
CONNOR- Which is a whole other issue.
MARTIN- Definitely. Lucy, what about you?
LUCY- I just think that generally when events are being planned disability just needs to be a part of that conversation. Because unless a disabled person shouts to make their voice heard it’s not a part of the conversation. I think ensuring events are held in accessible places, say there’s a march or something, making sure you know the entire route is wheelchair accessible and on flat surfaces.
EMMA- Yes, there have been lots of chats around Pride and different Prides and the accessibility of Pride, haven’t there as well?
LUCY- Yeah.
EMMA- So, that’s a big conversation in itself, isn’t it? Lucy, thank you so much, and Connor thank you so much for joining us. It’s been lovely and enlightening speaking to you both so thank you so much.
LUCY- Thank you for having us.
EMMA- To help us understand how things can be improved for disabled LGBT students I spoke earlier to Dr Ju Gosling. She’s the co-chair of Regard, the national LGBTQI+ organisation for disabled people.
JU- I think for other students, and indeed for everybody within the student community, it’s understanding that their experiences may not be the same as yours. And a really big thing for students who require support is that social care agencies stop work at nine. So, I’ve come across situations where everybody thinks so-and-so is unsociable; but they’re not unsociable, they just have to be back in their room at 8 o’clock because they’re helped into bed by 9 o’clock. And that may not be something they even want to disclose. If you’re dependent on scribes, if you’re dependent on interpreters, if you’re dependent on guides, unless your fellow students come forward and support that you’re not going to have access. So, I think it’s about just understanding quite how isolated people can be.
I’ve worked recently with students where the father has had to work nights because he’s then had to drive his son to university and scribe for him all day because the arrangements just haven’t been put in place. That’s almost the least of it, because it’s impossible to find your community if you don’t have your dad or anybody else, and for example you can’t see or you’re too anxious to get across campus, or you need a little bit of support because you can’t hear properly, you need somebody to make some notes.
We all have intersectional identities but we’re all dependent on each other. That’s where real independence comes from.
MARTIN- That was Dr Ju Gosling.
EMMA- Now, we’ve covered the LGBT aspect of being a disabled student and what UCAS said about that. But what else did their most recent report say?
MARTIN- Well, UCAS tells us a record number of disabled people applied to get into higher education in 2021, 8% more actually.
EMMA- 8%, that’s a big jump. I wonder why that is.
MARTIN- Could be maybe COVID related possibly?
EMMA- It might be. Online being a student when you’re disabled can be a tricky business in terms of accessibility and stuff like that.
MARTIN- Actually I wouldn’t know. I was never a university student or a college student.
EMMA- You were never a student?
MARTIN- I was never a student, no.
EMMA- So, how did you get into this game?
MARTIN- I snuck in through the back door. [Theme tune] Forget Glastonbury. [Hello Potato Pants Festival! Applause]
EMMA- What?
MARTIN- Well, after the Glastonbury chat last week we got a tweet about a local event called Potato Pants Festival, which raises runny HSP, hereditary spastic paraplegia. What a name.
EMMA- Yeah. It’s a good name for a festival.
MARTIN- Yeah.
EMMA- Talking of tweets, Martin, we had a fab tweet from fellow broadcasters, 89.9 PBA FM, down under in Australia. So, hello to Pete, Nona, and Alexis who sent us a lovely tweet from there, so that’s really nice. And listen to this, Martin.
MARTIN- Go on.
EMMA- You ready? Peter Ashley Jackson tweeted, ‘Martin Dougan gives an illuminating and slightly terrifying yet hilarious insight into visiting a music festival in a wheelchair’.
MARTIN- Mission accomplished.
EMMA- From festivals to sport. Wimbledon is on at the moment and the wheelchair tennis competition starts next Monday. But Martin, you know a bit about tennis, don’t you?
MARTIN- Yeah. I’ve tried wheelchair tennis actually.
EMMA- Have you?
MARTIN- Yeah, I have. I’ve played it. It’s really difficult. I think when you play a wheelchair sport you think that you’ll be good at it. I played basketball so I thought naturally I’ll be quite good at wheelchair tennis. But no. It’s the hand/eye coordination bit for me. I can catch a ball, but if you put a racket in there and ask me to hit one it doesn’t quite, my brain doesn’t quite send the same signals to my body.
EMMA- Not only is there wheelchair tennis, and that’s the most high-profile of the disability tennises – tennises? – we also have deaf tennis, there’s learning disability tennis, and there is blind tennis.
MARTIN- No way.
EMMA- Yeah, blind tennis.
MARTIN- No way.
EMMA- They’re hoping that it will become a Paralympic sport. I think it’s an up and coming one. But it’s a bit different to regular tennis isn’t it, Martin?
MARTIN- Yes. Blind tennis began in Japan in 1984. It’s played in over 30 countries. The rules are similar, the courts are similar, nets are lower, rackets shorter, balls are bigger.
EMMA- The balls are bigger.
MARTIN- Yeah, you’ve got a ball there, haven’t you? Give it a wee rattle.
EMMA- It’s got a rattly noise to it. it’s made of foam. It’s very soft. So, anyway we did have a go at blind tennis in the park yesterday with a bit of help from our BBC colleague, Reece Finnigan.
REECE- Normally in tennis you only get one bounce to hit it; in blind tennis you have two or three, depending on your sight category.
EMMA- Okay. So, I’m B1 for sure, which is the fully blind, totally blind. Three bounces?
REECE- For totally blind players you can have three bounces.
EMMA- Okay. So, it doesn’t feel very bouncy the ball.
REECE- It probably doesn’t, but you’ll be surprised, if you get it on a hard surface it will bounce quite a bit.
EMMA- So, what’s my starting point?
REECE- So, the key thing is for blind tennis you want to get really low.
EMMA- How low?
REECE- So, basically the first bounce is what you would use to locate the ball, right?
EMMA- Okay.
REECE- The second bounce you want to be positioning yourself and getting really low to the ground. And on the third bounce you want to be hitting that over the net essentially. So, the server says ready, the receiver will shout yes, and then the server will shout play, and then they’ll hit the ball. Okay, are you ready?
EMMA- Yes.
REECE- Play. I think you’re going for it too early.
EMMA- It’s my competitive streak.
REECE- You don’t want to be going on the first bounce. You’re rushing it. You’re rushing into it. Are you ready?
EMMA- Yes.
REECE- Play.
EMMA- I did it!
REECE- That was good, that was good.
EMMA- Yes!
REECE- So, Emma’s just given this a go. Let’s see how Martin does.
MARTIN- Reece, what I’m going to do is, instead of having a blindfold I’m going to close my eyes. Honest, I’m not going to cheat. I might open them a little bit.
REECE- All right. Martin, are you ready?
MARTIN- I’m ready.
REECE- Play. Wow. I mean, wow.
EMMA- Did you have your eyes open?
MARTIN- I’m actually going to close my eyes properly this time. So, my eyes are closed. Right.
REECE- Okay, are you ready?
MARTIN- Nope. I’m ready.
REECE- Play. Did that go close enough to him? I don’t know.
EMMA- You really, really closed your eyes then.
MARTIN- I did close my eyes genuinely. Are you ready?
REECE- Yeah. Oh, are you serving at me?
MARTIN- I actually hit it. What the heck? [End of clip] So, you were decent at playing it. But do you watch tennis, Emma?
EMMA- Only when it’s a final and Andy Murray’s in it.
MARTIN- It’s not at Wimbledon yet, but the Australian Open uses Hawkeye technology which tracks the ball in real time to provide an uber audio experience for blind people.
EMMA- Get in!
MARTIN- Yeah. Action audio uses 3D sounds in different tones to show where the ball is on the court, how close it is to the line, and if the shot is forehand or backhand.
EMMA- I know a bit about this. Now, we played a bit at the beginning of the show and that was this tennis sound. Here is it again. [Sound clip] So, the Christmas bells – which was an odd choice I think – tell you where the ball is on the court. There’s a sort of radar sound which sort of tells you how close it is to the line. There are two different tones of beep which I think tells you which one is a forehand and which one is a backhand. That is a lot of information to take in.
MARTIN- That is a lot to take in.
EMMA- [Cheering] Oh thank you, thank you for the cheer there. Now, you might be listening to this podcast in mono, which a lot of services bring it to you in, so the best way to get the full effect of what we’ve just played is to go onto BBC Sounds and listen to it there. And put your headphones on for that 3D sound.
MARTIN- And that is in stereo.
EMMA- That is in stereo absolutely. Let’s hear those sounds again without us talking over it this time. [Sound clip]
MUSIC- Theme.
MARTIN- Emma, I’m hoping to get some top tips from our next guest, Kate Stanforth.
EMMA- Yay.
MARTIN- Yeah, she’s a dance teacher, disability activist, model and TikTok sensation whose video of her sarcastically dancing on the floor next to a wheelchair was viewed, wait for it, more than 5 million times.
EMMA- Wow.
MARTIN- She’s gained even more followers since posting dance tutorials online. Hello Kate. And tell us a little bit more about that sarcastic video.
KATE- Hi. Sorry, that was one amazing intro. Can I use that, like, forever?
MARTIN- As long as you pay me royalties for it I don’t mind.
KATE- That video especially that hit off out of nothing. If you haven’t seen it basically there was a WAP dance.
EMMA- A what dance? Does WAP dance for something that we can’t say?
KATE- I’m pretty sure it probably does.
EMMA- Right, I’ve got you now. I know what it is now.
KATE- Get past that bit. And yeah, everybody was dancing to this and I was just like, this is how people think that I dance in my wheelchair. So, I did a little bit of a dance, and then I basically tipped my wheelchair on the side and got onto it on the side, and I was dancing on the side like this. I got some funny comments. I got some comments being like, what’s she doing and stuff like that, but at least people started following me and seeing exactly what I do, my disability activism stuff, my dancing. That was the start of a lot of my dance stuff online, so it worked out really well for me just from a funny video.
EMMA- Yes, it was a kind of a gateway. Have you always wanted to be a dancer?
KATE- Yes. I started dancing when I was two, and then I went into pre-professional training when I was eight. And I was dancing in the hope of being a professional ballerina. And it was when I was 14 I actually became really unwell and became disabled. So, I thought that I wouldn’t be able to dance when I became disabled.
EMMA- So, what happened to you when you were 14? How did you become disabled, if you don’t mind me asking? Because I know that’s a question that some people will answer and some won’t, and I completely and absolutely respect either way.
KATE- Yeah, I totally like answering it because I like raising awareness. I got diagnosed with ME first, and it took me a year to get diagnosed with my ME. And then I later on got diagnosed with EDS, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, which is a genetic condition.
MARTIN- Emma you’ll know, and Kate you’ll find out pretty soon I’m sure, but my dancing is a sight to behold. I think I scare people. And I’m quite self-conscious about dancing because I’m a wheelchair user as well. How did you sort of gee yourself up to think, do you know what, I was a dancer before and I’m still a dancer now and I’m going to be loud and proud about it?
KATE- It was difficult. I’m not going to lie about that, because I looked completely different from dancing on my feet. And I was a ballerina which is not something which you can change very easily into a wheelchair. So, it took me a long time to adapt, but also coming to terms with it myself and being like, you’re not going to be the same dancer that you were before. So, it was kind of getting to terms with this new Kate and this new dancer. And being okay with that, and being okay that I’m always going to learn new dances and new ways to move my body. But it’s also really exciting the stuff that I can do in my wheelchair now and the moves that I can make which no other ballerinas can do because they don’t have wheels, they can’t spin.
MARTIN- I was going to ask, have you actually gained any sort of dancing because you’re in the wheelchair? Because a lot of people wouldn’t believe that. They would think oh, that person’s got restricted mobility so they can’t do something. But have you gained stuff as a result?
KATE- Yeah, there’s loads of stuff that I’ve gained. I’ve gained a lot of shapes that I can create. But also one of my favourite things to do, it sounds really weird, is when I work with partners, especially children, I love working with children, and they can stand on my wheelchair, so I don’t have to take their weight, and we can work together. But we’re working together so closely and we can make moves and I can move them about, so I can wheel my wheelchair and they’re moving at the same time.
MARTIN- What shapes have you got? Because I’m really good at the big fish, little fish, cardboard box kind of shape. I don’t know if anybody knows that but it’s like the sort of Kevin and Perry dance. That’s as far as my repertoire goes in the world of dance. But what kind of shapes do you bust out?
KATE- The dab is really good at the moment.
EMMA- What’s that?
KATE- You’re kind of like saluting, but both arms go up and you’re like boom.
EMMA- Like that?
MARTIN- No, thinking about it like you know when someone’s got their washing and they’re trying to bash out the creases, so you put your arms to the side.
KATE- Both arms to the side.
MARTIN- Together, same side.
EMMA- Oh right, okay.
MARTIN- A bit like that, yeah. Yeah, that’s as good a dab as I’ve ever seen.
EMMA- I think you’re being kind there, Martin.
MARTIN- I’m not. You’re doing well.
EMMA- Sorry. We got a bit excited there, Kate. Are there other moves that we need to know about that you can do sitting down that are very cool?
KATE- There’s so much, honestly so much stuff. My favourite move is actually an arabesque, which is just, that’s a very ballet move, and it’s obviously just a diagonal line with your arms. And it just looks so absolutely beautiful in whatever you’re doing, whether you’re in a wheelchair, whether you’re standing up. And a lot of my students they work from beds or their sofa, and I’ve got visually impaired students, I’ve got deaf students; I learn so much from them.
EMMA- So, you’ve got students so that means you teach dance. You’ve got a dance school. And it’s not just any dance school, is it? Can you paint a picture of what your dance school is and what you do there?
KATE- Yeah. I have an inclusive dance school now, which is the best thing I’ve ever done. I have three other disabled dance teachers.
EMMA- Really?
KATE- Yes.
MARTIN- That’s brilliant.
EMMA- I didn’t know there were other disabled dance teachers. I thought you might be the only one.
MARTIN- I’ve got this vision in my head of it being like Fame or Glee or something like that, this amazing school where people that you expect...
EMMA- Where everybody knows you name.
MARTIN- Yeah, exactly.
EMMA- Remembers your name.
MARTIN- Please tell me it’s like that.
EMMA- Cheers.
MARTIN- Not Cheers, no. Please tell me they come in and everybody just starts busting to dance.
KATE- Honestly we’re just such a force to be reckoned with. It’s actually enabling them to make those adaptations. So, I will do kind of like a dance or some choreography and as they grow in confidence they actually know how to adapt things themselves. So, some people might not be able to lift their arms up because of dislocations or pain, and I don’t need to go to them, well if you can’t lift your arms up you can this. By within two, three weeks they know how to adapt it because they’ve learnt the skills. Because my aim isn’t for everybody to stay in my dance school forever; it’s for them to go out into the community, bang on those doors and get into the non-disabled classes and go, I want to join in.
MARTIN- I’ve heard something talking about wheelchair tap dancing.
KATE- Yes.
MARTIN- What is it?
KATE- One of my incredible students said that she would absolutely love to learn to tap dance but never would be able to because she’s a wheelchair user and stays in bed quite a lot and can’t move her legs. So, I was like, no there’ll be a way around it, we’ll find something. And I looked online and some tap teachers in the US use these kinds of gloves to teach basic tap moves so people could follow it. And I was like, we could use that just to generally do a tap session. So, we made these gloves where you put the taps on the gloves and you just tap with your hands. And we call it the beats class. We don’t just do kind of like tap moves; we focus mainly on the rhythm. Because tap is a bit complicated but it’s all about the rhythm. And we do the rhythm not just on the surface; we can make beats on wheelchairs, we can make beats on any surface. And also that’s something that as soon as I put that on TikTok people are like, blowing my mind.
MARTIN- it’s quite a simple idea but it’s quite unique at the same time. And those are the ones that usually work, aren’t they?
KATE- Yeah.
MARTIN- It just seems pretty obvious that oh, you want to tap dance, but you can’t use your feet but you can use your hands. It seems like a no-brainer but I’d never thought about it until you mentioned it.
EMMA- Comments haven’t all been positive, have they? Some people have actually accused you of faking your impairment. And here’s what you said back to the trolls.
KATE- Why would I spend 13 years of my life lying to people when before I became disabled I was training to be a professional dancer? I had my life planned out as a professional dancer, and I had to give that all up. Why would I spend life savings on wheelchairs? Why would I be faking any of this? Like actually I am faking being well. Comments? No, mate, absolutely no. Bye bye.
EMMA- I love that. Kate, I’m really intrigued by this idea of faking wellness. I’ve heard of obviously faking disability. But faking wellness, what does that mean?
KATE- Yeah, I feel as though I put on almost like a face, especially when I’m doing dance sessions and things like that where I need to look as though I’m ready, I’m ready to work, I’m okay and I’m here. It’s important that I’m trying not to give all this toxic positivity out and I’m like, here I am, I’m Kate, I’m great, I’m disabled but life’s amazing. I’m so thankful for what I’ve got and what I’m doing, but also I want to make sure that the people who aren’t doing so well don’t feel like they’re alone. And I think that’s really important.
EMMA- Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been so, so interesting to hear about your dance career and what you’re doing with the dance school as well.
KATE- Thank you.
EMMA- That is almost it for another BBC Access All. Thank you so much Martin for being here the last two weeks while Nikki’s been on her holidays.
MARTIN- No, no, thank you. Thanks to the team, you’ve all been great. I’ve really enjoyed myself. And thanks to Nikki as well for allowing me to fill in with those big shoes that she’s got.
EMMA- If you want to get in touch please email us on [email protected].
MARTIN- Or a voice note or a text message on WhatsApp. Our number is 0330 123 9480.
EMMA- And we’re looking forward to seeing you, Martin Dougan, popping up on Newsround again.
MARTIN- Every once in a while, here and there.
EMMA- Every once in a while, here and there, absolutely. We want to spread the word about Access All. Tell your friends, share it on your social media please. I don’t know, grab your friend’s phone and subscribe for them. That might work.
MARTIN- That would work.
EMMA- I can’t condone that. And they’ve probably got a password. But please share the pod, spread the word, we absolutely want to tell people about it. Thank you for listening and I will see you all next week. Bye bye. Martin, say bye.
MARTIN- Oh, bye.
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Access All: Disability News and Mental Health
Weekly podcast about mental health, wellbeing and disabled people.
