Pope Francis: «I am ready to meet Putin in Moscow»

He has said it time and again, in the last few days. Gracefully and with a big smile. It’s the first topic he tackles during our interview (with Fiorenza Sarzanini, vice director at Corriere della Sera), as soon as we set foot in his apartment in the Vatican.

«Please excuse me if I don’t get up to greet you, but see, I have a bad knee and I must remain seated, doctor’s orders».

Today Pope Bergoglio will undergo a minor surgical procedure, a knee injection, to relieve the annoying joint pain that has until now prevented him from taking part in the usual audiences and informal meetings with the faithful. «I have a torn ligament and I’ve been prescribed a series of knee injections, so we’ll see», he tells us. «It’s been going on for some time now, I can’t walk around anymore. Once upon a time popes used to be carried around in their sedan chair. But a bit of pain can be humbling, a blessing in disguise…».

His knee pain, however, isn’t the main worry for Pope Bergoglio at the moment. He’s deeply troubled by what is happening in the heart of Europe these days. «Stop! Stop the war», he pleaded on the 24th of February, when the Russian armed forces invaded Ukraine, throwing open the door to death and destruction, now haunting the lives of all European citizens.

He never tires of repeating his plea, again and again. But with a feeling of hopelessness, as nothing seems to be changing. We sense a hint of pessimism in the words of Pope Bergoglio, as he tells us of his efforts, together with Vatican State Secretary Pietro Parolin («He is a fantastic diplomat, in the tradition of Agostino Casaroli. Parolin knows the ins and outs of that world, and I place a great deal of trust in him») in order to obtain at least a ceasefire.

The Holy Father recalls his many attempts at stopping the conflict and reiterates his willingness to travel to Moscow. «The first day of war I called the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, on the phone. But I didn’t call Putin. I had had a chance to speak to him in December for my birthday, but this time no, I didn’t try to contact him. It was meant to be a clear gesture for the whole world to see, and for that reason I paid a visit to the Russian ambassador. I asked for explanations and told him, “in the name of God, stop this war.” Later on, about twenty days into the war, I asked Cardinal Parolin to convey my message to Putin, that I was ready to travel to Moscow. For sure, I was waiting for some kind of opening gesture from the Kremlin leader. We received no answer whatsoever, but we keep pressing them on this issue. I fear, however, that Putin cannot, or does not want to agree to our meeting at the moment. But how can you not try and do whatever you can to stop the atrocities? Twentyfive years ago we saw something similar happening in Rwanda».

Nato and the Kremlin
Pope Bergoglio’s main concern is that Putin won’t stop any time soon. He tries to consider the roots of his behaviour, the reasons that are pushing him to engage in such a brutal conflict. Maybe it was «Nato barking at Russia’s gate» that compelled Putin to unleash the invasion of Ukraine. «I have no way of telling whether his rage has been provoked»” Bergoglio wonders, «but I suspect it was maybe facilitated by the West’s attitude».

Those who care for peace are now grappling with the thorny question of weapon deliveries from Western countries to the Ukrainian resistence. A divisive argument for many, an argument that is likely to split asunder the world of Catholics and pacifists. The Holy Father has his doubts on the matter. His doctrine has always rejected the arms race and strongly condemned any escalation in the production of weapons, which might end up being used sooner or later on the battlefield, causing unspeakable horror and suffering. «I can’t answer that question, I live too far away, I don’t know if it is the right thing to supply the Ukrainian fighters», he tries to reason it out. «What seems indisputable is that in that country both sides are trying out new weapons. The Russians have just found out that tanks are useless and they might be developing new weapons. Wars are fought for this reason too: to test your arsenals. This is what happened in the Spanish Civil War, before the Second World War. The production and the sale of armaments is a disgrace, but few are bold enough to stand up against it. A couple of years ago a ship docked in Genoa, it was loaded with weapons to be transferred to a cargo heading to Yemen. The dock workers refused to shift the freight to the cargo ship, saying, “We’re doing this for the children in Yemen”. It was a small gesture, but for the right cause. I wish there were more people ready to step up and do something about it».

Pope Bergoglio’s thoughts, throughout our conversation, always seem to turn back to what is right. He has been repeatedly asked for a symbolic visit to Ukraine, but his answer has always been uncompromising. «I am not ready to travel to Kiev, not yet», he explains. «I have sent my envoy, Cardinal Michael Czerny (head of the Department for the Promotion of Human Development) and Cardinal Konrad Krajewski (the Pope’s Almoner). The latter has just visited Kiev for the fourth time. But I feel that I shouldn’t go there. Not yet. First, I must go to Moscow, I want to meet Putin first of all. But it in the end I am just a priest, what can I possibly achieve? I’ll do what I can. But if Putin decided to leave the door open…»

The Orthodox Church
Is it maybe Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, the one man who could convince Putin to crack that door open? The Holy Father shakes his head and says: «I spoke with Kirill for forty minutes on Zoom. For the first twenty minutes, he read from a piece of paper he was holding in his hand all the reasons that justify the Russian invasion. I listened to him and then replied: I don’t understand any of this. Brother, we are not state clerics, we shouldn’t speak the language of politics, but rather the language of Jesus. We are shepherds of the same holy flock of God. For this reason we must look for a path to peace, we must stop the fighting. A Patriarch can’t lower himself to become Putin’s altar boy. I had a meeting with him, scheduled for June 14, in Jerusalem. It would have been our second face-to-face, nothing to do with the war. But we called it off, we agreed that it could send the wrong message».

The Way of the Cross
In the past few years Pope Bergoglio did raise the alarm of a world war that was taking place piecemeal in various parts around the world. We now see that he was right and this is something that should shake our conscience. In his view, we have now gone well beyond the initial «piecemeal», we are striding towards a full-blown Third World War.

«I don’t want to take any credit for the alarm I raised in the past, it was a mere observation of what was really happening. Syria, Yemen, Iraq. In Africa, a string of conflicts one after the other. And in each and every one of them, there are international interests at stake. It’s unthinkable that a free state can unleash a war against another free state. In Ukraine, the conflict was triggered by other actors. The Ukrainians can’t be blamed for having fought back in the Donbass. We are talking of ten years ago. It’s an old argument. The Ukrainians are a proud people, that’s for sure. During the Way of the Cross we had two ladies, a Russian and a Ukrainian, who were asked to read the prayers together. The Ukrainians were outraged. I spoke with Krajewski, who was there with me, and he told me: stop them, don’t let them read the prayer together. He was right, of course, we can’t really understand them. So the two ladies remained silent. They are very touchy, the Ukrainians, maybe because they were defeated and demeaned after the Second World War, and they paid a very heavy price. So many lives lost, they are a martyred people. But let’s not drop our guard, let’s keep an eye on what is happening or could happen in Transnistria next».


Waiting for May 9th
We are nearing the end of our interview on the war and the summary seems rather bleak. «Not enough people are willing to work for peace», such is the Pope’s bitter conclusion. «The war is terrible, we must shout it with all our strength. This is the reason why I’ve just published a book with Solferino Publishers with a specific subheading, The courage to build peace. When I met Orban, he told me that the Russians have a precise plan, and that the war will end on May 9th. I sure hope so, that would explain the speed of the military operations in the last few days. Now the Russians have taken not just the Donbass region, but Crimea, Odessa, the ports on the Black Sea, everything. I have a bad feeling about it all, I’ll admit, I’m very pessimistic. However, it is our duty to do all we can to stop the war».


The politics in Rome
Pope Bergoglio is also paying close attention to the measures the Italian government wants to introduce in this direction. «Italy is working hard and working well, I must say. I enjoy an excellent personal relationship with Mario Draghi. I asked his advice in the past, when he was the director at ECB. He’s friendly and straight-forward. I had a lot of admiration for Giorgio Napolitano, the previous president of Italy, and I hold in high regard his successor, Sergio Mattarella. I also respect Emma Bonino, although I don’t share her views. But she knows Africa better than any of us. She is a woman who deserves the utmost respect».

The Holy Father is not too keen to talk about Italian politics and politicians. He urges everybody to work with seriousness, integrity and a deep sense of responsibility. Before we say our goodbyes, there is still time to take stock of the Catholic Church, how it is changing and what its future challenges will be. It is an endeavour to which Pope Bergoglio has devoted his entire life. «I have often encountered an old-fashioned mentality that pretends to be open and modern. In other continents, like South America and Africa, it’s been easier. It’s more difficult in Italy, I would say. We do have many excellent priests, nuns, lay people. In order to renew the Italian Church, I found it useful not to replace bishops too frequently. Cardinal Gantin used to say that a bishop is a Spouse of the Church, every bishop is a Spouse of the Church until his death. This is why I prefer to appoint priests, as I have done in Genoa, in Turin, in Calabria. This is the path of renewal for the Italian Church. In our next assembly, we will be voting in a new President of CEI (Italian Bishops Conference), and I am presently looking for one who is willing to introduces significant changes. Personally, I would nominate a cardinal, a respected cardinal. And he should be allowed to choose his own secretary, someone willing to work with and for him».

The Holy Father’s last thought is reserved to the late Cardinal Martini, in particular to what he considers to be the «perfect» article that Martini wrote on terrorism and war after 9/11. «It is so relevant today that I asked to have it published on the Vatican’s Osservatore Romano. I urge all journalists to keep on researching and investigating what is happening around the world, to keep on telling it as it is. It is your service to the country and I will be forever grateful for all you do».

(Translation - Rita Baldassarre. Original version, in Italian, here)